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Post by alexanderreay on Apr 23, 2016 19:57:01 GMT
Hi, Everyone.
I have been getting annoyed about the age old problem of on stage monitoring.
After playing various shows simply unable to hear myself play, sing or both, I decided to buy myself a small personal monitor, to take along in an attempt to create a simple and repeatable monitor mix for me to lift out for myself, regardless of whether the venue had it's own monitoring, before sending unmixed signals on to the FOH desk. A mix I was used to rehearsing with at home, basically allowing me to enjoy playing as much as possible, play, pitch and sound better.
I bought a TC-Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 and it is a nice little monitor, a little gimmicky, maybe, excellent for practicing with at home and even though I have my mix dialled in and EQ'd as I want it, the same problem persists when playing venues. Room acoustics vary and drastically affect sound, sometimes people listen, sometimes people talk over you (can't blame them, they are there drinking), in short it isn't repeatable and in circumstances where I really can't hear myself, I encounter feedback sooner than I can.
So, I have decided to have a look at in ear monitoring. There are pros and cons which I have read up on but my question is more a case of which gear do people use and rate if they are experienced with this stuff?
There will be acoustic guitar, keyboard and 2 lines of vocals running into it, as well as occaisional bass drum on one of those wooden block things with a mic in it.
I was thinking an 8 channel mixer, so I have spare channels, small would be a bonus. It is important to be able to send each signal unmixed, Ideally completely dry, on to the front of house desk. The mix is only for our monitoring and nothing else. A fast compressor to protect ears from loud cracks and pops etc. Headphone amps - wired is fine as we're both sitting.
Does anyone have any knowledge about this type of stuff or any experience using any products recommendations etc?
Many thanks,
Alex
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Post by Cams on Apr 24, 2016 20:09:34 GMT
I shall watch this thread with interest. As you say, it's an age old problem and one which I encounter a lot. One time with the ceilidh band I played a whole set with the capo on the wrong fret. It must've sounded awful out front, but I had no clue cos I couldn't hear a bloomin' thing!
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 24, 2016 20:27:12 GMT
Simples... Buy a Bose L1 or equivalent system and literally put all thoughts of monitoring behind you...
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Post by alexanderreay on Apr 24, 2016 22:32:32 GMT
the entire set! I bet that was a fun discovery when you came to put the guitar away! I really don't know how it happens so often, soundchecking sounding fine, then playing and hearing nothing. I know people absorb sound, but the monitors are pointing right at me, or there abouts, usually. I really had hoped moving from electric bands to acoustic stuff this wouldn't be a re-occuring issue, but, it seems so. To be honest, I care much more about how it sounds to me on stage than the FOH, I am playing for my enjoyment, firstly, and if I am enjoying it, I play much better. That bose system looks pretty excellent, although not cheap with the mixer, however, which it looks like we would need for multiple mics. Very interesting stuff, I know their reputation is excellent, as well. I had never heard of 'line array' before. A grand is more than I wanted to spend, but, if it truly solved the problem, it would be worth it... Time for some research, I think! One of the problems with in ear monitoring (apparently) is feeling disconnected from the audience. Because of this I feel traditional monitoring would be a more audience friendly option, especially for acoustic music, should it actually work and be repeatable. However, In ear has the benefit of repeatability, regardless of venue and zero feedback concerns over traditional monitoring. Sounding exactly the same during rehearsals and performing really appeals to me as well. That bose system seems a more than capable PA for small venues (I am only looking at the lower end of the range). Which would be nice to have the capability of providing easily. Have you personal experience with one of their systems? Listening, or playing through.
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Post by Cams on Apr 25, 2016 8:37:33 GMT
To be honest, I care much more about how it sounds to me on stage than the FOH, I am playing for my enjoyment, firstly, and if I am enjoying it, I play much better. I absolutely feel this way. If what I'm hearing sounds good, I play so much better and really enjoy it. It helps with the performance in more than just the playing though; it makes me feel comfortable and then I can engage with the audience too. Poor sound engineering by the local provider we hire has led to our knocking back weddings until we can figure out another way of doing it. I have the skills to mix the band, but not while I'm playing!
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 25, 2016 11:57:47 GMT
I tend to agree with Cams. My confidence really takes a dent if the duns seems dreadful to me.
I regularly play with the Bose system and find it works really well in most reasonable rooms. There is no need for monitors. I've used all three of the current range and reckon I preferred the Compact in smaller venues — I've seen others say similar things and there is at least one guy on that other forum who sold us top of the line Bose to rely mainly on the Compact. The annoying thing about the Compact is that it doesn't have the dedicated link to the Tone Match however, it works fine using a standard analogue line out. The Tone Match is a brilliant piece of kit which is pretty easy to learn how to use.
For all of that I prefer the downs of my AER Compact 30 and find this can certainly deal with most small venues. The vocal sound on this little amp is the bets I ever get. You can use the Compact with a small mixer without any problems.
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Post by scorpiodog on Apr 25, 2016 12:24:45 GMT
No idea about in-ear monitors, but I have been using the Bose L1 model 2 for about 5 years. There really is no need for monitoring. The sound emanates from behind you, so you hear what the audience hears.
A word about the tone match, though. It's menu driven, so it's great if you have no need to tweak EQ or system effects relative to other instruments/mics during a gig. But it is very clunky if you do. Relative volumes are easily dealt with (not menu driven). It's a good bit of kit with some quite useful features (particularly the guitar and mic modelling makes setting up with a new mic or guitar a peace of cake).
But we've reluctantly had to admit that the limitations of the tone match are insurmountable for us, so we've bought a new mixer. We'll still use the tonematch for small venues for the duo, or for solo stuff (which is really what it was designed for). The rest of the Bose L1 is phenomenal, though. There is quite literally no drop off in volume from the front of the audience to the back (and we tested it out unscientifically in a large barn). I have absolutely no idea how they've achieved this, but it may have been a meeting at a crossroads at midnight!
There are other columnar pa systems. I know Paul Brett was heavily into the Fishman SA220 at one time, and I see Fender have started to make one. But I'd put our Bose against any of them.
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 25, 2016 12:32:15 GMT
A word about the tone match, though. It's menu driven, so it's great if you have no need to tweak EQ or system effects relative to other instruments/mics during a gig. But it is very clunky if you do. Relative volumes are easily dealt with (not menu driven). It's a good bit of kit with some quite useful features (particularly the guitar and mic modelling makes setting up with a new mic or guitar a peace of cake). Good point! I always use an external preamp between the Bose and my guitar for that very reason!
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Post by scorpiodog on Apr 25, 2016 13:12:24 GMT
A word about the tone match, though. It's menu driven, so it's great if you have no need to tweak EQ or system effects relative to other instruments/mics during a gig. But it is very clunky if you do. Relative volumes are easily dealt with (not menu driven). It's a good bit of kit with some quite useful features (particularly the guitar and mic modelling makes setting up with a new mic or guitar a peace of cake). Good point! I always use an external preamp between the Bose and my guitar for that very reason! Me too, Andy. But it took me several years trying to deal with the tone match before I hit upon that idea!
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 25, 2016 13:22:15 GMT
Me too, Andy. But it took me several years trying to deal with the tone match before I hit upon that idea! One of the things I d like though is the presets available on the Tone Match. Although, I use it regularly it is not my PA. But I have my guitar preset. This is basically just a little analogue delay which works really well I think. Two of its can regularly soundcheck in no time at all. A bit fiddly for open mics though I guess.
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Post by scorpiodog on Apr 25, 2016 14:28:21 GMT
One of the things I d like though is the presets available on the Tone Match. Although, I use it regularly it is not my PA. But I have my guitar preset. This is basically just a little analogue delay which works really well I think. Two of its can regularly soundcheck in no time at all. A bit fiddly for open mics though I guess. Yes, you can save "scenes", too, which can be useful if there are several instrument/voice combinations to use. It's quite a good bit of kit, but it's almost impossible to change settings "on the fly" in any sensible timescale. Sometimes, the acoustics of the room, or the number of people in the audience can render your presets and scenes meaningless, and it's the devil's own job to correct them. As you say, this is not a good device for running open mics through. It also has only 4 inputs, so that's a limitation. But the real clincher for us in replacing it was that we couldn't have anybody not performing operate it unless they were on their knees in front of us, in which case, we would be likely to receive ribald comments from a drunken audience. So we've replaced it with a Mackie DL806. We've only used that at gigs a couple of times so far, but it does the trick.
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Post by andyhowell on Apr 25, 2016 15:52:18 GMT
Good to know the Mackie works well!
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Post by alexanderreay on Apr 25, 2016 23:52:07 GMT
This is all very insightful into the bose system, many thanks. It sounds excellent. I would love to be able to buy the system with the tone match, but price wise it gets expensive quick. I think if I do go down this route the compact and a seperate mixer would be the way to go. Can always add the tone match at a later date, I presume? Just doesn't come with it?
I liked the idea of having a small mixer and headphone amps on my pedal board for an in ear set-up, so I can turn up with nothing but my guitar and board, only and decide whether to monitor or not depending how things are sounding, or even start mid set if it is a problem. Not lugging loads of gear appeals to me.
I am not a professional musician, nor do I intend to be, it's a serious hobby to me. Because of this, out of interest, does anyone have any experience with cheaper equivalent systems? If it is night and day with the bose, fair enough, I have a feeling this may be quite a pro-bose crowd!
SOunds like some enjoyable non-science to me scorpiodog! I would love to hear one in action, looking at the pictures I can see the speakers all pointing at different angles, but, you are right, its does seem a little witch-crafty. Bose have always had systems that project sound in unfathomable ways, though, haven't they? It's pretty much their trademark.
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Post by scripsit on Apr 26, 2016 3:48:50 GMT
I'm only putting a single guitar at a time through this (no voice), but I prefer it to the smallest Bose. It's about the same power as the Compact, perhaps a little more. It was cheaper, and, at least in the music shop where I tried them, seemed to work much better (I found the Bose a bit 'zingy'). hkaudio.com/products.php?id=376Not the most scientific of comparisons (a single room and a single guitar), but I've been very satisfied with the Nano in a variety of environments since. I'm using a preamp for EQ, and leave the Nano's tone controls flat. Kym
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Post by scorpiodog on Apr 26, 2016 6:10:17 GMT
I'm only putting a single guitar at a time through this (no voice), but I prefer it to the smallest Bose. It's about the same power as the Compact, perhaps a little more. It was cheaper, and, at least in the music shop where I tried them, seemed to work much better (I found the Bose a bit 'zingy'). hkaudio.com/products.php?id=376Not the most scientific of comparisons (a single room and a single guitar), but I've been very satisfied with the Nano in a variety of environments since. I'm using a preamp for EQ, and leave the Nano's tone controls flat. Kym I have a friend who owns one of these. I've heard her sing through it, but she doesn't play any instruments (just a backing track ). It sounds really good and she's very happy with it. It must be relatively simple to use because she's not at all technically minded.
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