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Post by andyhowell on Dec 9, 2016 14:13:56 GMT
And remember we all have bad days.
Today I've been listening to some of my stuff. I don't like it. At all. Oddly, I was a bit happier yesterday. Time for a break !!!
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Post by creamburmese on Dec 9, 2016 18:49:35 GMT
I SO relate to this. "I take the holistic approach that it's not just the playing that counts it's the whole scenario of being immersed in guitar. This includes too much time watching youtube videos of things I can't play, going to concerts by performers whose standards I can't even hope to get anywhere near" Makes us goal-oriented types want to scrap the guitar for(expensive) firewood. However I console myself that the whole "immersed in guitar" thing has brought a new dimension to my life that I didn't know existed, and I'm enjoying every minute of it (except those minutes when I'm being given the evil eye by the orchestra conductor for losing my place, or maybe those minutes when I discover I've given myself tennis elbow from practicing the wrong way). Jokes aside though - does anyone else struggle with knowing you will never be anywhere near as good as a kid just out of music school? Count yourself out if you were one of those kids...
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Dec 9, 2016 19:31:57 GMT
Jokes aside though - does anyone else struggle with knowing you will never be anywhere near as good as a kid just out of music school? Count yourself out if you were one of those kids... One of the benefits of getting older is that you cease to worry whether other players are better or worse than you. I will never be Martin Simpson or Peter Finger but the other side of that coin is they will never be me. Sounds trite but what I mean is that over the years you develop your own voice and that voice doesn't have to be the best technically or creatively in the entire history of the guitar. I understand completely what Andy Howell means when he says he's been listening to his own stuff and is not happy today...maybe yesterday but not today. Not worrying about being the best actually frees you off to get better, there's no better critic than a dispassionate self...and you can always learn something from the annoyingly, inordinately talented kid!
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Post by creamburmese on Dec 9, 2016 21:02:00 GMT
I've always been a type A personality - gotta be the best (or at least the best I can be). This isn't working out so well as I get older so I have been trying to rejigger my thinking so I don't feel constantly frustrated by unattainable goals. The way I'm approaching this is to make new goals that are process-oriented rather than goal oriented - (roughly speaking, participating in activities rather achieving success). This fits well with my intention to use music to contribute in some way as I move towards retirement and another life phase (which I don't intend to spend sitting around watching TV and lying on a beach!!!) I'm thinking to expand the "playing in a nursing home" to "playing for other people who may not have access to music" Still working on it though....
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Dec 9, 2016 22:53:19 GMT
I've always been a type A personality - gotta be the best (or at least the best I can be). Bit puzzled by this. Aren't these two entirely different aims? I don't think I am a Type A personality (only have a rough idea of definition) but whilst I have great sympathy with the latter aim I have never worried about the former.
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Post by andyhowell on Dec 10, 2016 10:19:47 GMT
Jokes aside though - does anyone else struggle with knowing you will never be anywhere near as good as a kid just out of music school? Count yourself out if you were one of those kids... One of the benefits of getting older is that you cease to worry whether other players are better or worse than you. I will never be Martin Simpson or Peter Finger but the other side of that coin is they will never be me. Sounds trite but what I mean is that over the years you develop your own voice and that voice doesn't have to be the best technically or creatively in the entire history of the guitar. I understand completely what Andy Howell means when he says he's been listening to his own stuff and is not happy today...maybe yesterday but not today. Not worrying about being the best actually frees you off to get better, there's no better critic than a dispassionate self...and you can always learn something from the annoyingly, inordinately talented kid! My stuff still sounded crap yesterday. Remedy? Good old country blues and. Ragtime. Probably still really crap playing but It cheered me up no end.
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Post by delb0y on Dec 10, 2016 10:41:02 GMT
Great thread and really interesting last few posts.
My tips for new players would be pretty much what others have already said - don't practice mistakes, play slowly, and so on. One of my major failings is to buy too much instructional material - far better to buy one book / DVD and work one's way through it (which is now what I'm attempting to do!).
But these last few posts - yes it's very interesting how we have to position ourselves, and our ambitions, in the greater picture. I have friends who play guitar (and other instruments) at a level way beyond anything I will ever attain, I have others who sing and write songs and play in bands at a similar stellar level, several of whom do it professionally, and I often wonder why I bother with playing, singing, writing when I'll never be much good in relative terms. I guess it's like someone who plays footie for the pub team on a Sunday morning watching and yearning to be in the Premiership... Of course some folk are happy just to be doing the Sunday footie thing, but it never feels enough for me, and yet it's all I have. So somehow I have to find a way to deal with that.
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Post by andyhowell on Dec 10, 2016 11:04:39 GMT
Great thread and really interesting last few posts. My tips for new players would be pretty much what others have already said - don't practice mistakes, play slowly, and so on. One of my major failings is to buy too much instructional material - far better to buy one book / DVD and work one's way through it (which is now what I'm attempting to do!). But these last few posts - yes it's very interesting how we have to position ourselves, and our ambitions, in the greater picture. I have friends who play guitar (and other instruments) at a level way beyond anything I will ever attain, I have others who sing and write songs and play in bands at a similar stellar level, several of whom do it professionally, and I often wonder why I bother with playing, singing, writing when I'll never be much good in relative terms. I guess it's like someone who plays footie for the pub team on a Sunday morning watching and yearning to be in the Premiership... Of course some folk are happy just to be doing the Sunday footie thing, but it never feels enough for me, and yet it's all I have. So somehow I have to find a way to deal with that. It is about pyschological balance! I can only offer one observation. There are some decent open mics near me — more clubs I suppose. I can get as much enjoyment from hearing a simple arrangement, or somebody singing with heart rather than technique, from more professional players. Maybe I don't want to listen to them for 30 mins but on balance I can enjoy myself listening to others. The point is this. the people listening to you don't start by thinking about technique or complexity. SaveSave
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Dec 10, 2016 11:20:38 GMT
.............. The point is this. the people listening to you don't start by thinking about technique or complexity. Exactly so. And neither do I as a player. My learning has always been driven by the desire to play a particular tune/song. I have never consciously sought out "educational material" - when I started there wasn't any. Well, apart from "Play in a Day" - which is the only "tutor book" I have ever bought. I have never been able to see the point in me learning a particular technique unless I already know the specific use to which I'll put it. Listening has, I think, been my key skill and learning aid. My Beatles LPs taught me a lot about chords and combinations thereof, song structure, harmony, rhythm, strummin' etc. My Ralph Mc Tell LPs taught me a lot about fingerpicking. Being a folk club floor singer in my teens taught me that being able to play and sing it in my bedroom was only the start. Being in a ceilidh band for many years taught me a lot about fitting in with other musicians (whose egos were usually considerably more inflated than mine!) Everything has been nicked off other players by watching, listening, asking them, copying, modifying etc. All of which is probably why it's taken me over 50 years to become average. Keith
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Post by andyhowell on Dec 12, 2016 10:41:47 GMT
All of which is probably why it's taken me over 50 years to become average. Keith Hah, too modest. A ,long, long, time ago a musician gave me some good advice. If it isn 't working for you, put the instrument down for a day or two ro even a month or two. — the instrument will always call you back! The advice giving musician? Ralph McTell! SaveSave
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Dec 12, 2016 11:30:44 GMT
.............. The point is this. the people listening to you don't start by thinking about technique or complexity. My learning has always been driven by the desire to play a particular tune/song. As I can't sing a note in tune except by accident, I've always been interested in how to get originality out of the guitar and this may have coloured my somewhat idiosyncratic approach to learning and also, perhaps, guitar technique. It's quite true that sometimes I haven't a clue how I achieve a desired result. I once dumbfounded somebody by saying that I play 'pretty much by instinct. Have to agree on the importance of listening. Have to disagree on the the (tongue in cheek, I know) 50 years to become average. If you're average Keith your standards must be pretty high. Cheers, Nick
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Dec 12, 2016 15:08:42 GMT
As I can't sing a note in tune except by accident,, Nick Ah, so you're a jazz singer, right?
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Dec 12, 2016 16:06:30 GMT
Not even a jazz singer, just awful. Besides I like jazz....witness a liking, dating from my early teens, for both Blossom Dearie and Lady Day.
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Post by creamburmese on Dec 13, 2016 14:31:41 GMT
Of course some folk are happy just to be doing the Sunday footie thing, but it never feels enough for me, and yet it's all I have. So somehow I have to find a way to deal with that. This is exactly what I'm trying to deal with. I read somewhere that this is one of the biggest differences between adult learners and kids - the kids don't compare themselves with the teacher or the pros - they just get on with learning and don't assume they have to be as good as the teacher. Adults on the other hand, see /hear the excellence around them and may make depressing comparisons ... I'm trying to deal with this by working towards different goals ... playing in places that would appreciate this "lower" level of accomplishment, and wouldn't be able to pay, or have access to the experts. Of course i have to learn to better deal with performance anxiety first - but it does feel like an 'achievable" goal for me... Maybe I should write a blog post on this ... this whole conflict has been worrying me almost since I started learning guitar, and writing about it often helps me organize my thoughts... nb Type A personality - driven to succeed...
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Post by walkingdecay on Jan 14, 2017 10:08:33 GMT
Among the most crucial points made here are those about about the skill of listening, and the corollary of listening to and learning from the playing of others is that we should listen just as carefully to ourselves. I know it's difficult enough just to squeeze the notes out in the beginning, but it's never too early to turn a critical ear on yourself. How's your timing? Are you maybe hitting the strings too hard? Do you like the way you sound and do you think others might too? Musicality may be something we're born with, but the development of musicianship relies on self-criticism and refinement over time.
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