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Post by jonnymosco on Dec 20, 2021 16:18:29 GMT
I would love to see blind comparisons like these - and even better if the identity of the instrument was hidden from the player as well as the audience. I'll see what I can do. Jonny I think it is clear from some of the comments on here that some haven't played a high-end sole-luthier guitar and therefore have nothing to base their opinions on. A recording cannot replace the experience of actually playing one, so I've decided not to make a recording. I rate many mass-produced guitars (Lowden for example), they do the job but cannot be compared to guitars by Jason Kostal, Rory Dowling, Ralph Bown, Stefan Sobell... all these makers produce guitars with presence, volume, projection, clarity, resonance and sustain in spades. In the classical guitar world, world-class luthier-made guitars start around 3k, a price level so much more realistic for players to afford. It is a shame that high-end steel-string guitar stores bump up the prices placing them in the luxury market (they also need to make a living though and provide orders for the luthiers), I'd advise potential customers to deal directly with the makers, it's all part of the ordering experience. I mentioned in an earlier post that ultimately a guitar is a tool to enable making music; I wouldn't advise anybody to spend beyond their budget believing they would be a better player, instead save some money and work on good technique (especially RH tone production). At the end of the day play whatever guitar floats your boat. Jonny
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Post by dreadnought28 on Dec 20, 2021 17:36:07 GMT
I'll see what I can do. Jonny I think it is clear from some of the comments on here that some haven't played a high-end sole-luthier guitar and therefore have nothing to base their opinions on. A recording cannot replace the experience of actually playing one, so I've decided not to make a recording. I rate many mass-produced guitars (Lowden for example), they do the job but cannot be compared to guitars by Jason Kostal, Rory Dowling, Ralph Bown, Stefan Sobell... all these makers produce guitars with presence, volume, projection, clarity, resonance and sustain in spades. In the classical guitar world, world-class luthier-made guitars start around 3k, a price level so much more realistic for players to afford. It is a shame that high-end steel-string guitar stores bump up the prices placing them in the luxury market (they also need to make a living though and provide orders for the luthiers), I'd advise potential customers to deal directly with the makers, it's all part of the ordering experience. I mentioned in an earlier post that ultimately a guitar is a tool to enable making music; I wouldn't advise anybody to spend beyond their budget believing they would be a better player, instead save some money and work on good technique (especially RH tone production). At the end of the day play whatever guitar floats your boat. Jonny Agree with you, video pointless, it’s how the guitar feels and sounds to the player and how they play to its strengths that counts. What anyone does with their own money is nobody’s business but themselves. I have an ambition to visit Antarctica one day. Minimum cost for what I have in mind, getting inside the Arctic Circle, would be over £10k. I’m sure someone here will tell me that they have had absolutely fantastic times in Bognor or Bridlington or Blackpool or elsewhere at a fraction of the cost and wouldn’t spend even £1k on being away from home for pleasure.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2021 20:38:29 GMT
I don't have a boat.
What should I do?
I could get a dinghy I suppose.
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Post by dreadnought28 on Dec 20, 2021 21:53:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2021 22:06:57 GMT
You've really taken it to heart haven't you.
So anyway, I have a question.
How often do you play all your guitars? I have eight. One I don't play and another only rarely. I'm in the process of selling them. I don't have the space to have the other six on stands all the time. Usually I rotate between two or three for a month or two at a time and then I might swap them around.
How do you deal with 43 guitars? Do some of them just gather dust?
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Dec 21, 2021 0:07:00 GMT
I don't have a boat. What should I do? I could get a dinghy I suppose. Looks like your up a certain creek without a paddle
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Post by dreadnought28 on Dec 21, 2021 0:35:11 GMT
Taken it to heart? Er No, I was following a wind up with a wind up.
Since you asked, all my guitars are cleaned and polished and the strings get changed as necessary. I play around a dozen frequently but only 7 currently reside in their cases.The rest I pick up from time to time. As I use numerous guitar tunings I keep at least one guitar in each of those tunings, from the top of my head I think that’s 8. Add in a couple of 12 string guitars and another couple that are baritone A couple are with a dealer. There’s 5 in cases that I’ll move on eventually but still play occasionally. The other 2 in cases are Martins from 1840 and 1860 respectively of which I consider I’m only the the current current protective custodian. I take them out occasionally. All 43 are worth more than I paid for them or at at least what I paid, some very considerably more. Insurance costs more than £2.5k per year and there’s another £300 for a monitored alarm system. I have 12 banjos, 6 mountain dulcimers, 4 mandolins, a ukulele, a cittern, 2 octave mandolins, a banjo mandolin and several other assorted instruments. All I treat in the same way as the guitars.
Over the years I’ve met a lot of luthiers from all over the world. A few on both sides of the Atlantic have become close friends. Only a handful make a great living and all of them work very long hours and are totally dedicated to their vocation. Casual ill-informed opinions can cost them a lot of money.
Got my first guitar in 1965 aged 12 taught myself to play and sing influenced by The Beatles, Dylan and most of all Paul Simon. Played pro/semi pro ever since including several years in the USA. For 20 years I firmly believed my 1971 Gibson J50 bought new for £193 was world class and unbeatable. Alternative views were unwelcome and quickly dismissed. I was wrong.
Here’s a sample. The guitar is a Tippin which I sold a long time ago for almost £5k. I loved singing with that guitar and wish I’d kept it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 7:01:59 GMT
I'll see what I can do. Jonny I think it is clear from some of the comments on here that some haven't played a high-end sole-luthier guitar and therefore have nothing to base their opinions on. A recording cannot replace the experience of actually playing one, so I've decided not to make a recording. I rate many mass-produced guitars (Lowden for example), they do the job but cannot be compared to guitars by Jason Kostal, Rory Dowling, Ralph Bown, Stefan Sobell... all these makers produce guitars with presence, volume, projection, clarity, resonance and sustain in spades. In the classical guitar world, world-class luthier-made guitars start around 3k, a price level so much more realistic for players to afford. It is a shame that high-end steel-string guitar stores bump up the prices placing them in the luxury market (they also need to make a living though and provide orders for the luthiers), I'd advise potential customers to deal directly with the makers, it's all part of the ordering experience. I mentioned in an earlier post that ultimately a guitar is a tool to enable making music; I wouldn't advise anybody to spend beyond their budget believing they would be a better player, instead save some money and work on good technique (especially RH tone production). At the end of the day play whatever guitar floats your boat. Jonny So does this mean that you tried it and came to the conclusion that an audience can't tell the difference?
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Post by ocarolan on Dec 21, 2021 7:25:49 GMT
many audoences wouldn't know a decent acoustic sound if they heard one - give them something in time, in tune, and they are happy. The player will perform better though if they are completely comfortable with the guitar and enjoy the feel, response and sound. That is a very personal thing to each one of us.
keith
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 8:30:55 GMT
many audoences wouldn't know a decent acoustic sound if they heard one - give them something in time, in tune, and they are happy. The player will perform better though if they are completely comfortable with the guitar and enjoy the feel, response and sound. That is a very personal thing to each one of us. keith Sure. I agree. But my main point was about sound and timbre, playability and player feedback was a later add on. Even other guitar players will struggle to identify luthier from non-luthier instruments by ear alone.
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Post by forestdweller on Dec 21, 2021 9:00:05 GMT
Sorry, deleted my post, thought better of it. I should have learnt from past mistakes not to get drawn into these things. At the end of the day it's your money!!!!!
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Post by jonnymosco on Dec 21, 2021 10:27:49 GMT
So does this mean that you tried it and came to the conclusion that an audience can't tell the difference? I'll bring them round for you to try if you like. Is this the sort of thing you mean (a video I was requested to make following a similar discussion, but for classical guitar)?
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Post by jonnymosco on Dec 21, 2021 10:35:37 GMT
Sorry, deleted my post, thought better of it. I should have learnt from past mistakes not to get drawn into these things. At the end of the day it's your money!!!!! I enjoyed your post, honest and shows that the 'names' out there can charge more despite the merits of individual guitars. Here's some pricing info from Kim Walker: Why are my prices not locked? With a backorder list of approximately 7-8 years, I am not comfortable with projecting the future value/prices of my guitars. The prices at the left are the prices that I would charge had you ordered a guitar in the past without a locked price. These are basically reference prices. I find pricing to be a tough assignment. What I have found by tracking the resale of my guitars (in mint condition) over the last 40 years is that they have typically sold for more than my current list price, often for substantially more than their original selling price.The prices that I have charged for my instruments have increased by approximately 10% annually, on average, for the last 25 years. Though, the price increases between 2007 and 2012 averaged 5%. Style A Special $45,000… includes AAA Brazilian rosewood, master grade European spruce, and a Hoffee carbon fiber case. Style A Deluxe $45,000… includes AAA Brazilian rosewood, master grade European spruce, and a Hoffee carbon fiber case. Style B Special $42,000… includes AAA Brazilian rosewood, master grade European spruce, and a Hoffee carbon fiber case. Style B Deluxe $42,000… includes AAA Brazilian rosewood, master grade European spruce, and a Hoffee carbon fiber case.
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Post by borborygmus on Dec 21, 2021 10:38:20 GMT
<panto voice>Oh, not it's not!</panto voice>
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 10:47:58 GMT
So does this mean that you tried it and came to the conclusion that an audience can't tell the difference? I'll bring them round for you to try if you like. A generous offer, but it wouldn't be a blind test.
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