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Post by vikingblues on Feb 28, 2022 10:47:12 GMT
It happens often enough that I don't think I'm imagining it.
Saturday I tried to play some guitar.
Picked up the Rathbone - didn't sound right - tried to tune it - couldn't get it to sound in tune. Picked up the Giltrap - didn't sound right - tried to tune it - couldn't get it to sound in tune. Picked up the Tanglewood TW45 - didn't sound right - tried to tune it - couldn't get it to sound in tune.
Sunday - I picked up in turn each of these and played them a bit. Every damn one of them sounded perfectly in tune and singing nicely. At least 5 minutes on each and all needing no adjustment by the end.
I can only assume my ears were out of tune. There was no major difference in temperature / time of day / weather / humidity.
A pest, but not a major problem as it was just a case of coming back to play some later. Anyone else get this glitch?
But do any of you get this sort of issue that also play live in public? If so, what the hell do you do when you get up on stage and find it all sounds wrong???
Mark
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Post by scorpiodog on Feb 28, 2022 11:02:53 GMT
I've never had a situation where it sounds out of tune and I couldn't get it in tune. I have had lots of occasions when it all sounds crap, but I think that may be a different issue!
However, I have had the guitar go out of tune mid song, usually when I've changed strings too close to a gig. Usually it's just a case of ploughing on and hoping the audience doesn't notice (they never do) and then retuning before the next song while saying something daft through the mic. Only once have I had a situation where I've had to stop due to tuning issues, and that was when the string pinged and dropped 3 semitones. It was the D string. I could probably have coped if it was either E or the B, but losing the 4th string confounded me completely.
With most issues, the answer is to carry on, maintain the rhythm and sing louder!
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 28, 2022 11:37:11 GMT
I can't echo your situation exactly, Mark, which as you suspect, is probably down to your ears/brain playing tricks... So, another slight tangent - But I do often have difficulty tuning guitar to a piano every Sunday - easy enough around the middle/slightly to bass of the piano where my open strungs are, but the further away from that the piano plays the harder it is to keep the guitar sounding sweet alongside the piano - the reason I suspect being that some piano tuners will "sweeten" the tuning (as do guitarists of course)which results in the octaves being ever so slightly less than an octave at either end. The guitar, which has different compromises, can then sound at odds with the piano the further the latter plays from the middle, especially higher. Easy to say that the piano is the thing at fault, but it's always the guitar that sounds off, and as the guitar is tuneable more easily than the piano guess who has to compromise!? Sometimes I play a piano note in several octaves and tune to that as a sort of "average" - ie not in tune anywhere but a compromise to be mostly in tune anywhere. Which is what fretting systems are about anyway. Thankfully we don't have to retune for different keys as instruments used to do.....(whole other can of worms there!) Keith Just a thought - if there is anyone else out there that doesn't rely on a "tuner" to tell them when they are in tune (which it can't do of course) - I check my tuning with these shapes, which seem to be particularly revealing of the guitar being out of tune with itself - 079900 and 507600 - these seem to work on any of my guitars to reveal any tweaking that may be needed, even if all sounds well playing at the cowboy end. Do you have any favourite tests?
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Post by woodtoner on Feb 28, 2022 12:28:41 GMT
Just a thought - if there is anyone else out there that doesn't rely on a "tuner" to tell them when they are in tune (which it can't do of course) - I check my tuning with these shapes, which seem to be particularly revealing of the guitar being out of tune with itself - 079900 and 507600 - these seem to work on any of my guitars to reveal any tweaking that may be needed, even if all sounds well playing at the cowboy end. Do you have any favourite tests? "Tuners only offer an opinion" - Leo Kottke
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Post by woodtoner on Feb 28, 2022 12:31:06 GMT
It Happens to me - I call it "Beer Ear" Only seems to happen after my 3rd pint..or 1st 1/2 pint of "Sheepshagger" ... those who know - know.
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Post by jangarrack on Feb 28, 2022 14:19:02 GMT
I usually use a tuner as a starting point but that nearly always gives me a horrible sounding D chord in the xx0557 position as the F sharp on the B string sounds off and I try to minimise it by slightly flattening the B string or slightly sharpening the D string or sometimes a bit of each. Some days one way works better than the other. I also use Keith's high E minor type chord in the 079900 position. I do have days though when try as I might, I cannot seem to tune up in any way that sounds quite right.
You raise a fascinating point though because I remember many years ago my daughter had one of those clockwork music mobile things over her cot that played a lullaby and one of the notes was horribly out of tune. It really sounded off and you couldn't miss it, but after a period of time, can't remember if it was weeks or months, but it became barely noticeable and I eventually got to the point where it sounded fine to me. I couldn't see how the note could change so always assumed either my ears or brain had just adapted and accepted it as normal.
Jeff
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Post by ianlp59 on Feb 28, 2022 19:21:31 GMT
The only sensible answer to all of this is to get a banjo out. Condemned man's last request - can I tune my banjo...
Cheers,
Ian
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 28, 2022 19:58:42 GMT
Just a thought - if there is anyone else out there that doesn't rely on a "tuner" to tell them when they are in tune (which it can't do of course) - I check my tuning with these shapes, which seem to be particularly revealing of the guitar being out of tune with itself - 079900 and 507600 - these seem to work on any of my guitars to reveal any tweaking that may be needed, even if all sounds well playing at the cowboy end. Do you have any favourite tests? Shapes are good Keith, and I usually use them after doing an approximate tuning with a Snark.
As I suffer from persistent DADGAD I use different shapes of course. 000200, 222000, 444200, 555400, x07670, 000707, x20020 are some of them.
I do find out-of tune-ness in DADGAD more grating than in standard tuning - I think it's because of the extra resonances going askew with all those open strings that are octaves apart. The duplicate D and A strings should make it easier to tune.
It Happens to me - I call it "Beer Ear" Only seems to happen after my 3rd pint..or 1st 1/2 pint of "Sheepshagger" ... those who know - know. Sadly I was stone cold sober. Maybe I needed a drink to hear the strings in tune?
Mark
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Post by vikingblues on Feb 28, 2022 20:09:06 GMT
You raise a fascinating point though because I remember many years ago my daughter had one of those clockwork music mobile things over her cot that played a lullaby and one of the notes was horribly out of tune. It really sounded off and you couldn't miss it, but after a period of time, can't remember if it was weeks or months, but it became barely noticeable and I eventually got to the point where it sounded fine to me. I couldn't see how the note could change so always assumed either my ears or brain had just adapted and accepted it as normal. Jeff That is an interesting experience Jeff!
I vaguely recall when I tried to do a course on music that there was a section on how our hearing of a piece of music is affected by time and repeat listening. I think it was in respect of where a note or sequence of notes appeared that were unexpected. At first hearing it sounds odd and we find it difficult. After repeated listening our brain knows what is coming up and because we expect it to do that it ceases to sound odd at all.
I'm thinking that what happened to you and that note on the music box was of a similar ilk, though the fact that a note is out of tune is an extra stretch for applying the principle.
I also recall many decades ago when i got into listening to modern classical music (lunacy runs in my family!) it didn't take too many listening to pieces that at first just sounded like random noise, to become somehow coherent. Albeit still lacking in melody and harmony. Think Ligeti, Berio, Stockhausen and the like. Or not like!
Mark
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Post by delb0y on Mar 1, 2022 8:08:57 GMT
For me there are definitely days when I can't tune a guitar to save my life - and out comes the tuner (and I have to say I love tuners - my ears just aren't that good, so they are one of my favourite inventions - especially the silent ones that have made gigs so much easier).
If I'm recording I do tend to start with a tuner just so I know that if ever I want to add another guitar (or clarinet, or harmonica) I know I'm going to be close enough to concert pitch to be able to get subsequent instruments in tune. I do tend to end up tweaking the tuning myself though. Usually it depends on the tune - I don't think any of my guitars are in tune all the way up, so if the tune is generally down the easy end I will make sure it's in tune there, if the shapes are higher up (rare, but it does happen) I'll tune the guitar so it sounds nice up there. Rarely do the two meet - and it's usually the octave on strings 1 and 3 that stand out - don't have to move many frets up before they start to diverge.
I did hear a John Fahey tune the other day that was full of dissonance, so I figure there comes a point when you can get away with it... but I suspect the dissonance still has to be in tune!
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leoroberts
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My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Mar 1, 2022 8:57:16 GMT
Ears out of tune are the least of my problems... it's the gob that lets me down every time...
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Post by woodtoner on Mar 1, 2022 9:13:46 GMT
Think Ligeti, Berio, Stockhausen and the like. Or not like!
Mark
In the early 80's I was a DJ on a college f.m radio station in Tasmania - during a fundraising radiothon I played Stockhausen's 7 days in it's entirety (around 29hours). Never seen a switchboard light up like that since! We set a target for donations to make it stop but we didn't reach it so kept it going.
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Post by PistolPete on Mar 1, 2022 10:08:22 GMT
I've found this thread interesting.
When I check a guitar against the tuner and it's fine, but it sounds off when I play, I've always thought of that as my fingers going out of tune, rather than my ears.
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Post by Matt Milton on Mar 1, 2022 12:27:14 GMT
Just a thought - if there is anyone else out there that doesn't rely on a "tuner" to tell them when they are in tune (which it can't do of course) - I check my tuning with these shapes, which seem to be particularly revealing of the guitar being out of tune with itself - 079900 and 507600 - these seem to work on any of my guitars to reveal any tweaking that may be needed, even if all sounds well playing at the cowboy end. Do you have any favourite tests? Good tip - I'll try it. I play most songs down the nut end, in the first few frets, so most of my tests are usually just making sure that playing fifths, octaves, ninths etc sound right. It's more important that those all sound right than whether the guitar sounds in tune at the 12 fret. The guitar might be perfectly in tune, but if certain intervals sound wrong it'll make specific songs sound awful.
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Post by Matt Milton on Mar 1, 2022 12:31:50 GMT
Do you ever have problems with your sinuses, or tinnitus?
I was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid gland about a year ago and - just occasionally - it will give me odd mixes of symptoms like tiredness, dehydration, ringing ears, weird mood swings. I have found sometimes that, during one of these bouts, everything I played just sounded really ugly to me, in a jarringly physical way. It almost gave me a physical sensation of having a bad taste in the mouth. A very odd feeling.
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