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Post by grayn on Sept 6, 2023 13:55:05 GMT
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Post by delb0y on Sept 6, 2023 18:54:57 GMT
Cheers grayn There are some nice tunes in that video. We currently play All Of Me in the duo, and have had a bash at Djangology. Must spend some time with the others when I get some time. Interestingly, if one plays semitone approach notes to an Am chord, one more or less gets that Hungarian Minor Scale (except for the F note). I use that approach note "trick" whenever I need to catch a moment to think. Guess I'm playing the Hungarian without realising it :-) Just picked up my D500. Haven't had chance to play it properly yet, but what a lovely guitar! Can't wait to get to grips with it. Cheers Derek
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Post by grayn on Sept 7, 2023 10:39:11 GMT
Love to hear your views on the D500. I was looking in my string drawer this morning and noticed I have an unused but very old (15 years+) set of Argentine strings, by Savarez. I wonder if they are still OK to use? They are 10 to 45 though, so might be a little light for a shorter scale D-hole guitar. Here's a couple of vids of the grand master himself. It's great to see him playing, with the narration and how he very occasionally makes use of his injured finger. This is a wonderful piece of musical history. One of Django's most well know tunes. Here's a pic of Django's brother, Joseph. Playing a very unconventional G.J. guitar. And a rather nice Favino-Replica-D-Hole- by JWC.
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Post by delb0y on Sept 8, 2023 7:27:12 GMT
My buddy in our fledgling gypsy jazz duo is adamant (and probably correct) that you can play this music on any guitar. Indeed, when I broke the neck on my Manouche during lockdown I used my Tanglewood OM copy, my Aria jazz archtop, and even the little Martin OOO15m. None quite had the authentic sound, but all worked fine. There are plenty of videos of great players playing this music on all sorts of guitars. The original D hole and oval holes, were, I think, designed to be loud, to project, and to have a tone that cut through in those loud Parisian cafes and bars before electric guitars. Hell, even Django went electric at the end! All that said, these are lovely instruments and it's a good excuse to buy another guitar!
I'm going to have a go at Swing Gitane from the above video on the new D500. Already forming some positive thoughts about it, despite the strings on it being totally shot.
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Post by grayn on Sept 8, 2023 9:54:21 GMT
This video proves your point. The rhythm guitar being a 12-string dread, strung with 6 strings (Ibanez?). It doesn't seem that long ago when Jimmy Rosenberg was Little Jimmy Rosenberg, a child prodigy on the G.J. guitar. He's a great player and his dad, on rhythm, is no slouch. I think any guitar with a decent amount of middle and good projection would do but as you say, these G.J. guitars are so damn cool to look at and play. There's a vid of the excellent Bireli Lagrene playing G.J. on a nylon string but it didn't sound right to me.
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Post by delb0y on Sept 8, 2023 14:44:33 GMT
One chorus of Swing Gitane, as learned from the video in Post # 1 above. The rhythm (La Pompe!) is played on the D500 as well.
I need to get some Argentines to go on this guitar, not sure what gauge - any suggestions?
First impressions - I love 12 fret guitars! Not so long ago I was almost tempted by a 12 fret parlour by Auden. For me, the shorter neck is really comfortable on such guitars. Back to the D500 - the neck itself is very comfortable indeed - it's wide, but the only time I notice that is when trying to get a thumb over the top. I can still do this okay on, say, an F chord, so I can still play my usual finger-picking stuff (see below for why this might be important) but it's a bit of a stretch on some of the gypsy specific chords, though I tend to use simpler shapes anyway. It's a really easy playing guitar - the action is about 2.5mm at the 12th fret, which is very low for authentic gypsy players. It feels a lot easier than my oval hole (on which the action is a whisker above 3mm) so maybe that's the string tension? It sounds really nice and mellow and closer to a regular acoustic - although with enough of the gypsy sound to still be appropriate. This will work well in the duo as our intent is for me to play some finger-picking stuff, too, with Chris playing lead on top; and although it has worked on the oval hole, this will be a lot nicer, I feel. I do need new strings, though, so we shall see what that does to the sound. It's a beautiful looking guitar - tuning pegs aside, which I think are horrible. They work fine, but I think I shall order something different eventually.
Anyway, that's about it so far, after probably only an hour or so on this guitar.
Cheers Derek
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Post by grayn on Sept 8, 2023 16:58:44 GMT
I agree with everything you say about the D500. Well done for learning the chorus of Swing Gitane. It's a great tune and you played it well. One thing you do, that I am trying to work on too, is you play too softly. I am using a heavier plectrum than I am used to and find with a far more aggressive technique, that G.J. tone is coming out more. Long way to go but I am finding that that simple adjustment is helping quite a lot. I say simple but with a heavy pick and light strings, control is the order of the day. I too am thinking of new strings, though the D'addario Gypsy Jazz on it are fine. I have used Argentines before and seem to remember, they had quite a different sound and feel to these D'addarios. With the shorter scale I think 11s may be the way to go. This Patenotte is rather cute, I think.
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Post by delb0y on Sept 8, 2023 19:14:07 GMT
The first time I ever jammed with someone on Gypsy jazz was with a fellow called John Vickers. At the time John ran a music shop in Cheltenham and was in the early days of putting together the Manouche line of guitars ( my oval hole us a Manouche). I recall John played sooooo loud. It sounded great. He told a story of how the French GJ-er Moreno, who endorsed Manouche guitars, played so loud and with so much power that he could actually break strings at will. I don't particularly want to play loud as I don't think I'd ever get any opportunities to practice, and I have a feeling future gigs may be more background stuff, and need to be quite quiet, but one of my top 3 practice goals is all around my right hand, and developing a much better, more relaxed, rest stroke style. This is totally lacking in the playing above. At the moment my right hand work is in the conscious incompetence box, as soon as I start thinking about, say, what notes to play, I revert to old habits. But I'll get there eventually!
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Post by grayn on Sept 9, 2023 8:56:05 GMT
I see your point on the loudness front. I guess it's all a matter of getting a style that suits one's aims and abilities. I'll never be great at this style but hope to get where I feel confident and can enjoy myself. It would be great to play G.J. live and get people on their feet and moving.
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Post by grayn on Sept 10, 2023 12:04:56 GMT
I went ahead and replaced the factory strings on my recently acquired Gitane D500. I had a very old packet of Argentine strings (10 to 45). The factory strings were OK but didn't feel and sound like I had remembered from my previous dabble into the world of Gypsy Jazz guitars. I thought perhaps the 10s may be a bit light for a D-hole guitar but now they are on, they are definitely OK, gauge wise. And now they are on, I instantly remembered how they felt and sounded in the past. A very smooth, less jangly tone and to my ears, very much suited to a heavier plectrum and the G.J. style of playing. Yeah, I am very happy with this set of Argentines.
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Post by delb0y on Sept 12, 2023 7:15:02 GMT
I found a couple of packs of Argentine 11s in my string box. I will try one of those on the D500 in a week or two. Just waiting for some replacement tuners to arrive, so it makes sense to do the change then. Mine is an old D500, so I'm happy to chop and change it a bit.
I've grown to enjoy Swing Gitane a lot. Might keep working on that. Also been working on Seul ce Soir. If I can get a decent version recorded of where I am with it I shall post it here. My learning methodology and soloing strategy are both basic, but they do give a way of navigating a tune. I must start doing more transcribing, though, so I start getting a better vocabulary and sense of melody.
I'm drawn to slower players - probably that's because I'm slow myself. Jimmy Rosenberg isn't slow, is he? But nonetheless I do enjoy his playing.
Derek
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Post by delb0y on Sept 12, 2023 8:35:41 GMT
Here we go. Seul ce soir.
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Post by earthbalm on Sept 12, 2023 8:53:29 GMT
Nice delb0y. Really enjoyed your playing and tone. Dale
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Sept 12, 2023 9:10:58 GMT
Here we go. Seul ce soir. Very nice indeed Derek. Have you learned any solo stuff without backing? I love that type of GJ the best. Phil
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Post by delb0y on Sept 12, 2023 11:21:37 GMT
Thank you earthbalm and Phil Taylor Phil, I don't have the ability to play the unaccompanied stuff, I'm afraid. Django's unaccompanied pieces are beautiful, as are many pieces by other players, but those tunes very quickly reveal any and all limitations in one's playing! That said, my main focus is still on thumb-picking and I do have some ambitions to be able to play solo jazz pieces one day. Long way off, though. That said, I am spending some time with some chord books, and slowly starting to understand a little more about the structure of this music and why the chords do what they do. Maybe there'll be some cross-over in my playing one day and I'l have a go at some solo gypsy jazz. But though I've been flirting with this stuff for many years it's only this year that I've had the time to apply myself to it with any degree of consistency. So, after about forty years, it's still early days... Cheers Derek
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