Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 23, 2015 13:24:09 GMT
No. K Is that in answer to my first or second question Keith? Don't worry, we're nearly there now
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Sept 23, 2015 13:26:17 GMT
In Keith's line of work, surely he's used to pulling teeth
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 23, 2015 14:27:29 GMT
In Keith's line of work, surely he's used to pulling teeth Only the scale and polish to go now Martin
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 23, 2015 14:29:39 GMT
No. K Is that in answer to my first or second question Keith? Don't worry, we're nearly there now The second question! Hadn't seen the first one , but the answer to it is....... .....wait for it....wait for it.... Yes. Keith
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 14:38:17 GMT
Just a couple of things to add: the One 8 has an excellent feedback busting system built in- I find it more transparent than many other system I have used, but bear in mind it operates on the entire mix, not individual channels.
Also, bear in mind than 4th channel on the One 8- this can accept phono inputs, so you would have all the channels on your mixer plus the ones on the amp as well.
I have the Headway EBD 2 preamp, and this works great with the cause one 8, but it is a bit complicated. I have used the Orchid preamp and it is first class. Wish in a way that I had bought that rather than the headway.
Robbie
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Post by scripsit on Sept 23, 2015 15:14:03 GMT
I'm a bit confused here.
Keith, you're talking about a 40W (RMS, I would guess) amp, and being able to deliver the product of at least two musicians to 125 people.
The (approx) 180W Bose compact smallest system regularly gets panned in reviews for not being able to handle crowds much above 50.
I've been looking at a 230W amp which is lovely and clear, but doesn't claim to be able to do more than a medium room or about 70 people.
The 30W Roland which I have at the moment is inadequate in a large sitting room with more than a dozen or so people, in my experience. This is where I'm not pushing the channel or master volume: I find a fair bit of unpleasant artifact if either are pushed past about 75%.
Admittedly, I'm thinking of solo fingerstyle, which in a party/reception circumstance means that the audience are drinking, talking and concentrating on other things apart from the performer, but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect.
As an aside, I agree with the preamp or mixer comments: with a good preamp you can leave a decent amp's EQ flat and control everything including minor volume changes from the preamp.
Kym
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 23, 2015 16:09:29 GMT
Just a couple of things to add: the One 8 has an excellent feedback busting system built in- I find it more transparent than many other system I have used, but bear in mind it operates on the entire mix, not individual channels. Also, bear in mind than 4th channel on the One 8- this can accept phono inputs, so you would have all the channels on your mixer plus the ones on the amp as well. I have the Headway EBD 2 preamp, and this works great with the cause one 8, but it is a bit complicated. I have used the Orchid preamp and it is first class. Wish in a way that I had bought that rather than the headway. Robbie Thanks Robbie. I like the sound of that feedback buster, although I'm not clear about what the implications are of it operating on the entire mix. I'm really to'ing and fro'ing at the moment!
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 23, 2015 16:14:53 GMT
That's an interesting point you make there scripsit, especially since on the Acus website the One-10, which has a max power output of 350w rms is described as suitable as a stand-alone PA for an audience of up to approx 150 people.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 23, 2015 16:48:51 GMT
I'm a bit confused here. Keith, you're talking about a 40W (RMS, I would guess) amp, and being able to deliver the product of at least two musicians to 125 people. The (approx) 180W Bose compact smallest system regularly gets panned in reviews for not being able to handle crowds much above 50. I've been looking at a 230W amp which is lovely and clear, but doesn't claim to be able to do more than a medium room or about 70 people. The 30W Roland which I have at the moment is inadequate in a large sitting room with more than a dozen or so people, in my experience. This is where I'm not pushing the channel or master volume: I find a fair bit of unpleasant artifact if either are pushed past about 75%. Admittedly, I'm thinking of solo fingerstyle, which in a party/reception circumstance means that the audience are drinking, talking and concentrating on other things apart from the performer, but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect. As an aside, I agree with the preamp or mixer comments: with a good preamp you can leave a decent amp's EQ flat and control everything including minor volume changes from the preamp. Kym Kym, I've done this many times and in many situations. The AER has plenty of power and clarity for my purposes. There is no real bass put through the amp, which is what would suck most of the power. We/I play either to quiet and listening audiences at moderate volume levels, or as background music in situations where we expect that we aren't the focus of attention and that people will be talking etc. I think the whole amplification and volume expectation thing has got out of hand really. For a full band with bass and drums the situation is entirely different and does need serious power and projection. But for gentle acoustic music then just some balancing and a slight volume lift is all that is required. As solo guitarist/singer I should be able to play and sing to a quiet attentive audience of around 100 or so without any amplification in the right room, as indeed I did regularly in 1960s folk clubs. Not sure I'd quite manage that nowadays though! Agree that for solo fingerstyle then some sound reinforcement would be nec for 125 sized audiences even if quiet, but my 40w AER does that comfortably with plenty in reserve. Most mag reviewers expect disco/pro gig level volumes from review kit - I don't! Hope that helps explain where I'm coming from Kym. Keith
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Post by scorpiodog on Sept 23, 2015 17:17:45 GMT
I'm with Keith on this, Kym. The audience will do what the audience will do. If they're in listening mode then rock band volume levels are unnecessary, and if they want to chat and drink, then increasing volume levels will either make them talk (or shout!) louder or, at worst, annoy them. Neither outcome is that good for the performer.
I've played in pubs where not even our Bose L1 will penetrate without being uncomfortably loud for us as performers (I think it's rated at 450 watts), But I've also been in the same pub where a friend of mine was playing through a Marshall AS50D and it was perfectly audible.
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 24, 2015 10:28:14 GMT
You're dead right there scorpiodog. We saw Jack Harris (highly recommended by the way) at Falmouth recently, in a pub/restaurant setting. He was coming through the p.a. and during the gig, there was a fiar bit of general hubbub from towards the back of the room from people who were in for a drink and/or meal and not paying much attention. At the end of the set he got an enthusiastic encore and teamed up with Kirsty Merryn who was his co-guest. Instead of fiddling around getting another mic set up, they did the song unamplified. You could have heard a pin drop.
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Post by elverman on Sept 25, 2015 9:51:47 GMT
Hi all,
Been reading this thread with interest as I seem to be having the almost identical debate as the OP. I hope he doesn’t mind me jumping in and requesting a few more opinions alongside the Acus?
Most of the time I play out it’s straight through a PA but I want to get an acoustic amp and start doing more solo gigs in pubs etc. I’d like a small, light, powerful amp that I can carry to the gig in one hand and that can handle guitar and a vocal mic as a minimum. I want decent sound quality and enough volume to carry in a small but busy venue. I’ll be playing solo gigs but also need it to hold it’s own as my main guitar and vocal amplification in a band with another guitarist/vocalist, accordion and amplified upright bass. My budget is flexible but I’d rather stick around £300ish and ideally stay under £400. For info, all my guitars have K&K pickups.
I know AER seem to be the benchmark for quality but I can’t tell how much is based on real world use as opposed to received wisdom. I’ve used one live a few times and honestly wasn’t blown away by it. It’s all a bit moot anyway as I can’t really justify the expense of a new compact 60 so based on all that I’ve pretty much ruled out AER…although there is one on ebay for £400 right now.
I occasionally use an old Trace Ellliot TA100 at one of my regular pub gigs and I like it a lot. Chandler’s in Kew have one s/h for £300 but when I went in to try it they dismissed it as outdated and outclassed and instead pushed the new and cheaper Fishman Loudbox mini. I wasn’t sure if that was genuine recommendation or had to do with their endorsement deal. I tried it and liked it well enough, although I think it looks a bit cheap. Call me shallow but looks do matter to me.
They also stock Acus stuff which although I didn’t try, seems to have good reviews. I’ve read this thread and I’m kind of intrigued by the possibility of expanding to four inputs so I could potentially use a single “PA in a box” for duet gigs. Like the OP, I also have a small 6 channel mixer I could use to expand available inputs. I dunno though, if you’re regularly going to be using the mixer to supplement the amp, surely you’re better off just getting a generic powered speaker by Mackie or similar as using the little desk as default?
Finally, my eye also keeps getting drawn to the ZT Lunchbox Acoustic which looks great, is affordable, small, light, 200w, has tonnes of connectivity and and seems to have positive reviews - although mostly from USA magazines from a couple of years ago. Not much real world feedback on them, especially from UK users. Any thoughts on these? I like the fact the extension speaker is only £100 as well. I’m really tempted to just go for it and see how I get on.
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Post by thejamsinger on Sept 25, 2015 19:47:02 GMT
I can vouch for the fishman loud box mini. It's loud with good tone acoustically and vocally. As for the others I have no experience of them so can't help. All I can say is go with your ears, if it's loud enough and sounds good go with it.
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Sept 26, 2015 21:55:44 GMT
Been reading this thread with interest as I seem to be having the almost identical debate as the OP. I hope he doesn’t mind me jumping in and requesting a few more opinions alongside the Acus? I certainly don't mind elverman - the more contributions to the debate the better (although you've thrown more options into the mix just as my final plan was taking shape ) Having said that I'm still favouring the Acus One-8. If I were to go through my mixer however I'm wondering if I would need to bother with a pre-amp too. My mixer apparently has four "four state-of-the-art XENYX Mic Preamps comparable to stand-alone boutique preamps" (what does mic-preamp mean I wonder?) although ocarolan did remark that a preamp "will give you extra control esp over the crucial mids as the preamp mid cuts a lower frequency than the mixer". Sorry but as you may have guessed I don't know much about this sort of thing - I'm just a guitar-player!
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 28, 2015 10:56:35 GMT
'Preamps' are the circuitry that take the single from your mic (or pickup) and give it a volume boost. Quality preamps are usually those that provide some real volume (gain) headway without white noise. Most reputable manufacturers supply pretty fine circuitry.
The preamps provide a signal that has to be 'shaped' by you, using your mixer or an instrument preamps. Some guitars have adjustable preamps built in 9usually on the top of the guitar). Those who don't want to put huge holes in our guitars prefer to use stand along preamps which take the signal from the instrument and then send it on to a PA or amp.
The shaping of sound is important. Often with acoustics there seems to be too much base or 'muddiness'. This is often not caused by bass frequencies but by mid range frequencies. The reason I like my Headway is that it has two bands of mid range EQ which allows for fine adjustment. My guitar benefits from a cut in the lower mids (to about 9 o'clock) and sometimes the upper mids and base as well (to 9 or 10 o'clock).
I have worked out what I think the base setting for my guitars are at home. If I can when playing live I will try and use an input on the mixer that is flat —no EQ. If there is somebody running the sound they can use this as a starting point. However, one of the reasons many of us use these things is that many people using sound don't really understand what they are dong (cutting the mids) and some of them _ often old rock sound guys — seem to have little idea what an acoustic instrument sounds like!
If you are using your mixer you will might not need a preamp but a good guitar preamp might just be a better piece of kit for shaping a guitar sound. Crucially, most of us have our preamps close to hand (maybe on a mic stand) while the mixer of PA can be a long way away.
It is those mids that are nightmare. If I end up doing an open mic (no sound checking) with horrible sound I will just take the mids out almost completely — something that can be done in a few seconds. I will pick up the guitar, plugin and then just run my fingers along the strings with a basic chord. Listening for boom — if it sounds completely horrible I will just kill the mids and then set off the make the best of it all. Takes about 10 seconds to do that!
Hope that helps!
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