Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Apr 6, 2016 8:11:22 GMT
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 6, 2016 8:26:57 GMT
Musicality/feeling whatever you like to call it, does it for me every time. Mind you, it does help if there aren't too many colossal goofs....
Better read the article now I suppose!
Keith
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Apr 6, 2016 9:29:47 GMT
Phil, To me music is an emotional communication so it has to connect and engage me. When trying to be "perfect technically" gets in the way of this the connection goes, but when I listen to Bach or Mozart which are "technically perfect" there is a definite connection. I suppose if you go the "perfection" route you have to be a natural genius Funnily enough, listening to Adam Raffety's version of "Michelle" I keep seeing images in my head of Vic Reeves and his "club singer" gems
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colins
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Post by colins on Apr 6, 2016 9:58:41 GMT
Technique is just what you use to bring out the music. The music is everything, to me Tommy Emmanuel, great technician lousy musician, Michael Chapman, so-so technician great musician. Dave White well.....
Colin
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Apr 6, 2016 11:13:17 GMT
Have to come down on the side of musical essence, not that technique doesn't matter. I have a practice routine which, in full, takes around 45 minutes and starts with 12 minutes of exercises for the right hand alone, the rest is akin to pianists' five finger exercises. In my defence, a few years ago I lost, temporarily thankfully, the use of my left arm, couldn't play more than three fretted notes and the exercises where developed over a period of months as a kind of musical physiotherapy. It's amazing what you can do when you see fifty years of your life going up in smoke.
The point I'm heading to is that my playing improved (I was at one time doing the exercises daily, sometimes on a 12 string) and the net result was that I had to think less and less about what my hands were actually doing. Leaves a handy space for the brain to concentrate on what the ears are hearing and how close that might be to what the brain was demanding. Musicality/technical perfection is perhaps not a mutually exclusive dichotomy but rather a symbiotic relationship where the balance between the two is critical. Is this where the comment on Tommy Emmanuel comes from, wrong balance? To me, Martin Simpson and Peter Finger are fine examples of the balance being right, technique serving musicality.
Sorry if this sounds a bit worthy but is's a fascinating question.
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 6, 2016 12:40:33 GMT
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Post by vikingblues on Apr 6, 2016 14:36:36 GMT
The musical essence is key for me.
Which maybe explains why I often prefer live recordings of particular pieces of music to studio ones. Played with feeling and a few mistakes gets my vote v soulless and technically perfect. But there needs to be a balance - too little technique and things get rather unpleasant. As I can testify!
There's a conflict on technique v musical essence for me where a guitar teacher gives lessons that are based around the idea of getting pupils to pass exams. Such joyless music making is very uninspiring. Like the sewage farm operative you find yourself just going through the motions - and the musical output rather appropriately stinks.
Yes - the musical quality can be improved as a result of work on technique - particularly if it's technique geared towards helping the music to flow better. It helps to have both musical essence and technical perfection but I'll leave that to the likes of the Berlin Philharmonic and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra.
Mark
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Apr 6, 2016 15:48:28 GMT
I don't know - I'd like to see some more examples of the two extremes. I wish my playing was as technically good as 'Michelle'. It didn't seem bad at all to me.
I would guess that most technically perfect musicians are pretty good at emotional expression as well, otherwise they wouldn't pass their exams to get into music college. It's easier to think of technically imperfect ones who are still very moving and engaging - except that I can't think of any at the moment.
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Apr 6, 2016 16:03:46 GMT
It's easier to think of technically imperfect ones who are still very moving and engaging - except that I can't think of any at the moment. Given the self critical comments you post on your own excellent Plucky Duck offerings missclarktree , I'd suggest you try looking in a mirror...
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Apr 6, 2016 17:30:15 GMT
I don't think AF's performance of "Michelle" is a good way of demonstrating musical essence ... Having said that he is giving it a try.. And bringing the subject up... A very tough thing to show on a self publicity vid where you are hoping to appeal to potential punters..
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Apr 6, 2016 18:03:31 GMT
Given the self critical comments you post on your own excellent Plucky Duck offerings missclarktree , I'd suggest you try looking in a mirror... Oh I say, you're too kind, Riverman (blushes)
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Post by martinrowe on Apr 6, 2016 18:16:09 GMT
I read this recently from www.themandolinplayer.net/jody-stecher by mandolinist Jody Stecher. He explains it well I think. "But much of Stecher’s mandolin technique is driven by his needs for musical expression and for him, it’s hard to separate these two qualities. He said, “To me, technique and expressiveness are partners. Technique enables expression to come out unfettered. When I play, either with friends or in performance or in a recording session, I don’t think about technique at all. The technique is what I practice, but when I play, I am playing with the mind of the singer and the technique is there to rely on.” Stecher continued, “If I’m playing a song—and that means something with words—I have the words and the breathing in my mind, and I like to be able to play it how I would sing it. I always tell my students, at least be able to play with the singer does. But what a lot of instrumentalists do is dumb down the melody and they don’t hear what the singer is really doing. Just try to play what Carter Stanley sang; it’s not as simple as you think. There’s unusual timing and there are swoops and curves, and the melody is more subtle and complex than you’re taking it to be. On the other hand, I don’t play mandolin just like a vocalist, because then it would fall flat..."
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Post by vikingblues on Apr 6, 2016 19:34:00 GMT
Absolutely Martin. Being able to play as a singer would sing it is a good plan. Taking pauses where a singer would take a breath. Expression by way of variations of dynamics and tempo. But put "unusual timing and swoops and curves" into your playing in lessons geared up to exam passing with rigid technique and it's an abomination in the eyes of the master. I think that's where technique gets a bum rap - too many people, including teachers, use it in a very rigid uncompromising way. Technique should allow for expression, unusual timing and swoops and curves. Then again one man's swoops and curves and expression is another mans bad technique and covering up inadequacies. Just look at any thread about Segovia on a classical guitar forum and watch the warfare unfold. Mark
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Post by jonnymosco on Apr 7, 2016 11:10:34 GMT
Both simultaneously? Bream over Williams?
If somebody has terrible technique, do they have the skills to express themselves?
Jonny
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Apr 7, 2016 14:22:42 GMT
If somebody has terrible technique, do they have the skills to express themselves? Jonny
Well that's me finished then because my technique is really terrible but I guess we are talking proper musicians here so it's a good question Jonny
Phil
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