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Post by oustudent on Aug 18, 2018 9:18:13 GMT
What Nut width are you planning on the new guitar?
J
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2018 9:20:51 GMT
What Nut width are you planning on the new guitar? J At least 45mm. I don’t get on with anything less than that- my left hand can’t cope! Btw, I looked up Lutz spruce, and it sounds very interesting. Need to see how it’s price compares with Adirondack.
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Post by oustudent on Aug 18, 2018 9:24:18 GMT
The standard Brook 44mm is Ok (just) but I often wondered why they don't standardize on a 45mm, would a 46mm suit your style better?
John
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2018 9:42:43 GMT
The standard Brook 44mm is Ok (just) but I often wondered why they don't standardize on a 45mm, would a 46mm suit your style better? John I may well John. I think both my Tavy’s had 45mm and even then I would bump into strings occasionally, so may well go up to 46.
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Post by nkforster on Aug 18, 2018 12:55:39 GMT
Ok, so this is all a bit theoretical, but.....for you guys with multiple guitars, or for you luthiers out there, which back/ sides tonewood would you pair with Adirondack to produce the strongest bass response? Let’s assume the guitar is an OM, with 650mm scale length. Some of the Woods I have experience with are Bubinga (my favourite) Indian Rosewood, mahogany and cocobolo. I have to say, the bass reposnse on the adi/ cocobolo 12 fret I’m borrowing is immense. Lets keep it realistic and say that, for economy sake, Brazilian rosewood and Madagascan rosewood are out of the question. Aim is to to create a Celtic sounding instrument, with lots of overtones, Bell like chime, balanced response. Robbie Robbie, I'm afraid you're looking at this the wrong way. But don't worry, so is almost everyone else. Bass response is not the result of a specific combination of woods. Bass response comes from specific design choices. There are different types of bass response, and the leavers you need to pull to manipulate them are body size and soundboard design. When I say there are different types of bass response - compare the best Martin you've ever played to the best Sobell or Forster you've played. All may have a terrific bass response, but the martin sounds different from the other two. With a better Forster or Sobell, you get a bass which projects more than that of a good Martin. The part that carries, isn't actually bass. It's mid. Now, if you make a Martin soundboard too floppy, you get a muddy sound. If a Forster or Sobell soundboard is too stiff, you get a nasal sound. The Martin design relies on stiff wood to make the guitars any good - the X brace and soundboard form (the arching it is put into) are both rather weak. Conversely, the work I and Stefan do does not rely on super stiff spruce. The arching and bracing we employ does the job of resisting the string pull. Basically, you should be having these discussions with the maker of your guitar. They will have their own view. But you can't spend your way into bass response by picking out this set of back and sides over another. With the right design choices - regarding the three dimensional form you put the soundboard into, how thick it is, and how you brace it, and marry that to the right size body, you can have the bass you want with any back and sides. They simply won't matter. I've written a bit more about it here: www.nkforsterguitars.com/steel-string-guitar/As for choices - this guitar below has a pretty good bass response. The back is dead, and the sides are laminated so thickly, they can't vibrate. The material choice for the back and sides is decorative. No more. www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/acoustic-baritone-guitar/Not every maker knows how to do this with back and sides, but most should have some idea about how to work the top. Fun as it is to put these things out on forums, and to imagine the "ideal" combination of woods, your time would be better spent talking to the person making your guitar. I hope it turns out great, regardless of the woods. Best, Nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2018 20:40:20 GMT
Cocobolo looks nice too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 11:19:05 GMT
Interesting points Nigel. If you don’t mind a bit of a discussion and me playing devils advocate though, I want to put a couple of things to you. Firstly, if the top is all about the bracing, then that implies that it does t matter what sort of top you employ? However, we all know that different spruce types, as well as cedar, redwood etc all impart their own characteristics. Not to mention the tap tone that each individual piece of wood possesses. Surely you have to start with a decent piece of wood in the first place?
And I guess surely that the same for back and sides? Overwise we”d all be playing those horrible plastic backed ovations if back wood had no effect? Again, the tap tone and stiffness of the wood surely plays it’s part?
I guess my propensity to go with Brook is that over the last 15 years I have played almost every model that Brook makes. And I’ve tried an awful lot of different wood combinations, some on the same style guitar. So I have reached a point where, when you take the maker out of the equation, you are left with the variables of the Woods used. And I guess that is where my question is coming from.
To give an example- I’ve played a an awful lot of Tamars over the years, and have owned two. One was cherry back and sides, and although I felt it had some nice overtones, it wasn’t anywhere near a rosewood one in that respect. Likewise the mahogany one I owned just sounded too ‘ordinary’ for me. I’ve played a walnut one though that was awesome. Likewise an oak one that, despite Si saying that Oak didn’t possess a great tap tone, had an astonishing bass to it (whoever ended up buying that fro Vinatge and Rare in Bath last year, you are a very lucky bugger!)
And even now Nigel, I still don’t understand the reasoning behind you making the back and sides the way you do. I know for instance that Taran make the sides very stiff using laminates, but still keeps the back able to vibrate. And both you and Rory build wonderful wonderful sounding guitars.
Maybe it’s just alchemy !! You luthiers are very very clever, and each individual has there own way of doing things, I would love to have you build me a baritone like the one in your link. In fact t, it’s made me think about how much fun I had recently playing a Taylor baritone, and how great my music sounded in that low tuning. And you have definitely planted a thought in my head. I just wish I could afford your prices though Nigel.
Robbie
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 11:20:33 GMT
Cocobolo looks nice too. That looks very nice Vinny. There are some sets like that on the Madinter link earlier in the thread. Cocobolo always seems to have such a rich colour. Robbie
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Post by nkforster on Aug 19, 2018 13:13:28 GMT
Firstly, if the top is all about the bracing, then that implies that it does t matter what sort of top you employ? However, we all know that different spruce types, as well as cedar, redwood etc all impart their own characteristics. Not to mention the tap tone that each individual piece of wood possesses. Surely you have to start with a decent piece of wood in the first place? And I guess surely that the same for back and sides? Overwise we”d all be playing those horrible plastic backed ovations if back wood had no effect? Again, the tap tone and stiffness of the wood surely plays it’s part? I guess my propensity to go with Brook is that over the last 15 years I have played almost every model that Brook makes. And I’ve tried an awful lot of different wood combinations, some on the same style guitar. So I have reached a point where, when you take the maker out of the equation, you are left with the variables of the Woods used. And I guess that is where my question is coming from. To give an example- I’ve played a an awful lot of Tamars over the years, and have owned two. One was cherry back and sides, and although I felt it had some nice overtones, it wasn’t anywhere near a rosewood one in that respect. Likewise the mahogany one I owned just sounded too ‘ordinary’ for me. I’ve played a walnut one though that was awesome. Likewise an oak one that, despite Si saying that Oak didn’t possess a great tap tone, had an astonishing bass to it (whoever ended up buying that fro Vinatge and Rare in Bath last year, you are a very lucky bugger!) And even now Nigel, I still don’t understand the reasoning behind you making the back and sides the way you do. I know for instance that Taran make the sides very stiff using laminates, but still keeps the back able to vibrate. And both you and Rory build wonderful wonderful sounding guitars. Maybe it’s just alchemy !! You luthiers are very very clever, and each individual has there own way of doing things, I would love to have you build me a baritone like the one in your link. In fact t, it’s made me think about how much fun I had recently playing a Taylor baritone, and how great my music sounded in that low tuning. And you have definitely planted a thought in my head. I just wish I could afford your prices though Nigel. Robbie Robbie, the top isn't all about the bracing. It's about mass, stiffness, thickness, and the three dimensional shape you put it in. And the mass/stiffness of the structure you attach it to. Bracing is just one tiny part of how a top works. Many makers spend years tinkering about with bracing and hardly consider the other factors I've just mentioned. Oh well... As for the material itself? What is "decent" to one maker might not be to another. A pal of mine in the trade was showing me a pile of "master grade" soundboards a couple of years ago. He'd paid a fortune for them. I wouldn't have used a single one of them. But, he's only been making for ten years or so and has spent too much time on the internet reading about tonewood and not enough time making... As for Ovations - they were made to be amplified. The top is dead and the body is live. That's why they didn't feedback and sounded good (for the time) on stage, and crap acoustically. What I make is the other way around. The body is dead and the top is live.
For most makers, the variables they have are the materials. And that's the problem. It's the wrong way to approach sound design. It's all about the top. If you want a basic understanding, you have to read through this lot:
www.nkforsterguitars.com/steel-string-guitar/
Robbie, if you've taken the maker out of the equation for this build, I presume you've picked them because of the sound their guitars make. If that is the case, talking to me won't help. Talking to them will. Address your questions to your chosen luthier. If they can't answer them, the problem may be the questions, not the luthier. It would be a lot easier if you told them the sound you want, your visual preferences and your budget. Then they can work out what's best for you within their knowledge and understanding. If you want me to answer all your questions, you'll need to be sending me a deposit, not them!
Best,
N www.nkforsterguitars.com
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 14:27:23 GMT
I must admit that last sentence has rather bemused me Nigel
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Post by oustudent on Aug 19, 2018 17:04:38 GMT
The standard Brook 44mm is Ok (just) but I often wondered why they don't standardize on a 45mm, would a 46mm suit your style better? John I may well John. I think both my Tavy’s had 45mm and even then I would bump into strings occasionally, so may well go up to 46. That is something I would consider if I were going down the bespoke path again.
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Post by nkforster on Aug 19, 2018 23:03:00 GMT
I must admit that last sentence has rather bemused me Nigel Robbie - have you actually commissioned a guitar here or are you still to send a maker a deposit? If you've narrowed down your list to one, you'll learn a lot more by asking them your questions. Not anyone else. Your relationship is with them. By asking "everyone" all you'll get is a lot of answers which will only lead to more questions, which will lead to more answers and more questions....Also, by gathering up a load of views and opinions from others you undermine the relationship you could be building with the maker. The best example I can give is in personal relationships - lets say you and your partner have to make a decision about something. Ideally, the decision should be made between the two of you. But if one person in the relationship keeps presenting the views/questions of a third person, who they would rather be in a relationship with, that could cause problems. So, my suggestion is to direct all your questions to the person who is going to make your guitar. Make your choice, send them your deposit and come up with something between you that will give you the best chance of getting the sound you want. Now it could be the luthier you've chosen does believe the only real variable is the wood you make the guitar from - good, then the pair of you decide the best woods. It could be the maker has three or four bracing patterns they work with. Good, make your decision based on that. It could be the maker believes it's all down to the shape you put the top into (like me) then good, work with that. But, if you like their work enough to order an instrument from them, you've bought into their way of thinking. Work with that. Does that help? Nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com
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Post by bobw61 on Aug 22, 2018 7:54:11 GMT
My main Acoustic is a Norman its all solid Mahogany top, back and sides lovely all round tone and great low end but beautifully balanced throughout has had many nice comments about its sound....although a fairly cheap Guitar its tone has been likened to many high end guitars...i have a lovely Yamaha FG180 aswell which is almost 50 years old its slightly mellower in tone but a lovely guitar to play.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 9:39:17 GMT
Thank you to everybody who has contributed advice on this thread, I hope it has been as useful to others as it has to me. I’m taking a break from this thread now. A lot of the advice received seems to have gently rebuked me for asking the question in the first place. However, I do feel that this is what forums like this should be for. Yes, I will of course be having this conversation with the people that may be building me an instrument at some stage in the future, and yes I know that the guys I have in mind will be building me something brilliant. However, I thought that, given the collective knowledge of all of you on the forum, with guitars far more expensive than I will ever be able to afford, and with woods that I might not yet have thought about, I might be able to build up some knowledge of the subject BEFORE I have the conversation with the builder.
Thank you to everyone who has mostly kept this thread good natured and in the spirit that the question was originally posed. However, as I have got my fingers burned in this thread asking what I thought was an honest question, I will refrain from revealing my lack of judgement and knowledge in future.
Robbie
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