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Post by matt on May 23, 2013 17:22:13 GMT
Hi Guys, When I've played at local amplified clubs, I've so far used the pickup system of my guitar (a K&K Trinity system). Last week I bought a new guitar* that doesn't have pickups. I have a solo gig coming next week, and I'd like to play the new guitar... I haven't played thru a PA using a condenser mike only. How do you feel, is it very different to play using an external condenser mike (say, 40 cm away) than using a pickup system? Is a microphone setup typically robust enough that I can change my playing position a bit (like lift a leg over the other), or would I need to pay extra attention to sitting still? Am I likely to run into feedback problems...? The venue is not too noisy, the main speakers are not too near, and the monitors are quite good. ...hmm, I wonder, if these are two general questions, as no two rooms and PA systems are the same... I'll have a soundcheck and I'll ask the soundman's opinion, but I'd in any case appreciate your opinions . *I am planning to write here a little narrative about my guitar testings, including visits to three excellent luthiers --- will take a while to find time for writing, but stay tuned .
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Post by soundout on May 23, 2013 17:32:42 GMT
Hello Matt You will get a true sound from a condenser, but because of its distance from the instrument, it will sound thin compared to a pickup or internal mic, because proximity increases bass response (and the mic will be further away). Our ears these days have become accustomed to beefy acoustic sounds so you may not like the more 'natural' sound of a mic on a stand. And if there is any kind of noise in the room or an audience accustomed to louder music, your mic will probably feed back before the soundman gets it to a beefy level. In my role as festival soundman, I hardly ever come across acoustics mic'd up on stands and when I do, I need to balance the whole sound (vocals, other instruments etc,) to the more natural guitar sound.
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Post by earwighoney on May 23, 2013 18:23:30 GMT
I'd take both guitars, the one with the pickup and the one without and play the one for the gig which the soundman is happiest with.
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Post by ocarolan on May 23, 2013 18:32:43 GMT
In the right situation, it can work. I have done it in village hall type situations with a quiet, respectful, "listening" audience - I used one condenser mic to pick up guitar and voice whilst seated. It's more a case of sound reinforcement than a great deal of ampkification. Can give a natural sound, but the room really does need to be quiet. I'd hazard a guess that the situations you're talking about, Matt, aren't likely to be that quiet - maybe I'm wrong!
Looking forward to hear the story of the guitar hunt!
Keith
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Post by andyhowell on May 24, 2013 7:50:40 GMT
RI try and use an external mic when I can, blended with a pickp using a Headway Preamp. A a recent solo gig - in a noisy room and using a foldback monitor - I was able to get about at 80/20 mic to pickup blend. I like using this whenever I can as the sound is so much airier. The mic is angled upwards at 45 degrees and pointed a the 14th fret or thereabouts! I tend to use an AKG C 1000 for this.
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Post by scorpiodog on May 24, 2013 9:13:54 GMT
I have no technical knowledge to impart. However, as a player, my experience has been that, although the sound engineer may be able to perfect the sound balance using a mic, the physical restriction of sitting virtually immobile for a while is unwelcome and involves constant monitoring, thereby dividing your attention. For this reason, I would always advocate using a pickup. Mind you, I'm always more comfortable standing up to play (I doubt that's possible with a mic) and I fidget a lot, so it's just my preference.
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Post by andyhowell on May 28, 2013 9:42:27 GMT
Blending a pickup and a mic certainly allows you to stand up - and you can move around a bit as well! Obviously you are more restricted but it should to be a problem to most of us! Feedback is your only real enermy. A growing number of players are going back to mics or blends!
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Post by matt on May 28, 2013 14:10:45 GMT
Thanks for the replys! Many good points there. There is indeed the "tradeoff" between airy/natural and beefy/punchy sound. Normally I go for the more "punchy" one when playing amplified, but now I have new material that would probably benefit from softer, airier touch. I'm now planning to play my "regular" stuff using my old guitar & its great pickup system, and the new open-tuning aires etc using the new guitar and condenser microphone. I just got email from the soundmen; they seemed happy with the plan, saying that they'll just need to turn the monitors down. I'll be fine with that .
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Post by jackorion on May 30, 2013 6:09:32 GMT
How about something like the lr baggs lyric or anthem?
I've heard and used both, albeit in non gig situations, and they both sound fantastic - the anthem is a little more 'solid' sounding due to the undersaddle element, and the lyric is a bit more airy but I think, for your situation, both pickups could work....
I've played live with a real mic once or twice and it was a lot harder work than I thought it was going to be - you have to be careful not to move too much and I found myself playing too hard...
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Post by andyhowell on May 30, 2013 7:25:08 GMT
With an external mic you do really need a good preamp. - the Headway is superb with or without an external mic blended in.
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Post by matt on May 30, 2013 13:37:18 GMT
How about something like the lr baggs lyric or anthem? I've heard and used both, albeit in non gig situations, and they both sound fantastic - the anthem is a little more 'solid' sounding due to the undersaddle element, and the lyric is a bit more airy but I think, for your situation, both pickups could work.... I've played live with a real mic once or twice and it was a lot harder work than I thought it was going to be - you have to be careful not to move too much and I found myself playing too hard... I haven't decided yet, whether I'll have a pickup installed to the new guitar... I guess I'll be wiser after this gig . If I choose to install one, it will be a choice between the K&K Trinity, Baggs Lyric, and a custom condenser + soundboard-piezo combination like the clip-on DPA + K&K Pure Western. Or a soundboard piezo + the Lyric. I have heard the Anthem set; it indeed seems to work well. Undersaddle piezo won't, however, fit my guitar, and I also have the feeling/experience that the undersaddle piezo brings a bit of artificial twang to the sound unless skillful preamping/EQing is done. One way would be to use the piezo for the bass/low mid only and taking the rest from a microphone or a soundboard piezo --- I guess that's how it's done in the Anthem set. The K&K would be an easy option, as I already have one beltclip Trinity preamp... I could for example get the Trinity system with the outboard Quantum blender, and then I could choose whether to go with the passive soundboard piezo, beltclip pre, or external pre. But the Quantum system is quite expensive...
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Post by matt on May 30, 2013 13:52:04 GMT
With an external mic you do really need a good preamp. - the Headway is superb with or without an external mic blended in. The Headway looks indeed good and I've heard positive comments about it. I'm however not sure whether it would work in the 2-channel mode with e.g. a piezo+gooseneck mic or a piezo + external condenser, as there's only one EQ channel. As a mic pre for small-diaphragm condenser it's bit restricted as there's only 18V phantom... I'll go now with the gear they have at the venue --- the soundmen are experienced and the sound has been always good, so I believe it will work. I'll then think later, whether to invest on a condenser mic & pre/blender or to just take the easy way with pickups .
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Post by jackorion on May 31, 2013 6:00:45 GMT
With an external mic you do really need a good preamp. - the Headway is superb with or without an external mic blended in. The Headway looks indeed good and I've heard positive comments about it. I'm however not sure whether it would work in the 2-channel mode with e.g. a piezo+gooseneck mic or a piezo + external condenser, as there's only one EQ channel. As a mic pre for small-diaphragm condenser it's bit restricted as there's only 18V phantom... I'll go now with the gear they have at the venue --- the soundmen are experienced and the sound has been always good, so I believe it will work. I'll then think later, whether to invest on a condenser mic & pre/blender or to just take the easy way with pickups . That's exactly how the anthem works - the undersaddle handles all the low, boomy, feedback inducing frequencies and the mic handles all the quacky ones... however, if you're confident that an external mic will work then there's no questions that its the most natural sound...
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Post by scripsit on May 31, 2013 9:40:03 GMT
I've kept out of this because it's hard to recommend something that has to, to an extent, be decided on before you can install it and try it, but I am a believer in combination mic and piezo pickups. I've got this Fishman system in both of my main guitars: www.fishman.com/product/ellipse-matrix-blend-1I find that the microphone knocked back by about a third or so blended with the piezo puts out a very realistic sound. You have a slider inside the guitar sound hole which lets you do the blend, and a volume control, too, and most people don't see the unit until you point it out. The microphone is on a flexible stalk and you can experiment with different positions, but in a large 0000 box and a smaller 000 it seems to work well pointed low towards the back, just off the soundhole on the treble side. I've only got a small acoustic amp, a Roland 30W, but can jack it up pretty well flat out without any feedback problems. I was happy with the sound just plugged straight in, but recently bought a Radial Tonebone PZ-Pre preamp (mainly because it's what Al Petteway uses when he plays live and I hadn't blown any money on guitar stuff for a while). The blended signal from the Fishman is mono, so the preamp allows me to plug both guitars in simultaneously and adjust volume and EQ appropriately on its twin channels. There's a mute switch on the preamp and swapping from one guitar to the other is just about seamless when you want to go from DADGAD to missionary tuning, for instance, whereas before the bigger guitar definitely put out more volume. As a bonus, the added EQ allows for a little finer control over the midrange, in particular. www.tonebone.com/tb-pzpre.htmI think Martin were using the matrix blend pickup system in some of their intermediate priced guitars, so you might be able to check out the system in a regular music shop. Their installation was one of the ugly trap door in the guitar side type, but the electronics were the same. I've had limited experience with acoustic guitar preamps, but if you're going to play plugged in I think it's worth investigating what's available. I was surprised how much more flexibility you get, and you won't always have an accommodating sound man. Kym
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Post by matt on May 31, 2013 10:05:42 GMT
jackorion & scripsit, thanks for the comments!
I'm quite happy with the K&K Trinity, but in addition an external pre/EQ/DI could indeed be handy. Or preferably any external (stomp)box that would replace the beltclip pre.
The K&K Trinity does in principle about the same thing as the Anthem and Ellipse do --- the differences are that the K&K preamp is an external one and the piezos are soundboard, not undersaddle type; this makes the K&K less destructive/invasive for the guitar, and the strumming-sound is in principle less quacky. The signals of the mic and pickup can be taken out separately or blended; if I need monitors and have a soundcheck, I'll feed only the soundboard piezo to the monitors; that eliminates feedback problems.
In the basic Trinity system, The EQs and gains can be adjusted with pots inside the preamp --- that is the limitation of that system, as you can't then adjust EQs on the fly or during the soundcheck. I guess the idea is that you just set the pots so that you get a balanced sound out and then alter it by blending and with an external EQ. The K&K Quantum pre would do this all in one box.
The Radial PZ-Pre looks very good, but it again has only one set of EQs... so you still need to have something before it to do the low/hipass for the piezo/mic.
Anyway, I still haven't decided whether to install any pickups to my new guitar... I could keep one instrument purely acoustic.
I'll let you know how I got along with the external microphone.
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