josemarques
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 82
My main instrument is: guitar
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Post by josemarques on Jun 13, 2019 11:08:09 GMT
Hello
Sorry o don't know if here is the best place to do this question (debate).
Anyway I wish to ear from you and your experience about this subject.
I'm mainly a classical guitar builder, I have done just about 7 steel strings and now I decided to do a step forward with steel strings and I have done a new design and I'm really happy with the sound and aspect in general.
A few days ago I was talking with a friend, luthier as well, and I told him that to finish my guitars I prefer shellac and some times oil but mainly shellac.
He told me that I was crazy to use shellac, I'm I?
In his vision the classical guitar players are very careful with they guitars and for that the guitars are always in good shape and the steel strings player has not so mush care of the instrument, I dont know if he is right but im my opinion everyone that pays a high price for a guitar he protects and cares the instrument, I'm I wrong?
What you guys think about this?
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leoroberts
C.O.G. 
Posts: 26,148 
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Jun 13, 2019 20:12:36 GMT
Jose, I’m careful with my instruments but I expect them to get dinged occasionally. It’s the ‘price’ of playing them and letting other people play them.
I could not enjoy owning an instrument that I was afraid to use for fear it might get a love bite.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jun 13, 2019 20:30:56 GMT
Jose, I’m careful with my instruments but I expect them to get dinged occasionally. It’s the ‘price’ of playing them and letting other people play them. I could not enjoy owning an instrument that I was afraid to use for fear it might get a love bite. Hi Leo. In principle I'm totally in agreement with you. My guitars are to share with anyone and sharing increases my own pleasure as well as theirs.  In practice, anyone who shares my instrument and dings it better be a fast runner!  FFJ |
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josemarques
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 82
My main instrument is: guitar
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Post by josemarques on Jun 14, 2019 5:44:02 GMT
Thank you for your answers thats great to have some opinions here  I'm totally agree with you but I wish that this post goes to a bit debate and I wish to put some more ideas here. For example wen I pay a big amount for my guitar I wish the best sound possible and the modern spray finishes are not so good for sound, maybe I'm wrong but I believe that affects the sound. Yesterday I was reading some ideas online, even in youtube, by luthiers and guitar players and I found a big amount of big named luthiers that are using shellac because of the sound, steel strings of course because classical will be almost 100%, for example Ervin Somogyi after lots of exeriencies decided to use shellac in the soundboard of his guitars because of the sound, and he have done lots of guitars in the past with "modern" finishes as well. I'm not making my opinion and to be honest I'm happy to change the finish in my guitars, I'm just looking for opinions Chears JM |
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foz
Strummer
Posts: 20
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Post by foz on Jun 19, 2019 8:23:08 GMT
I am new to guitar making, but my first two builds are finished with shellac for a number of reasons.
I can't comment on sound improvements over other methods, but in my mind the application is manageable within a home environment compared to lacquer. I have enjoyed the process also.
My main thoughts for shellac on a hand built guitar is that generally people will take care of the guitar. If a ding to the shellac where to occur, the repair can be easily corrected. In my mind the general 'up keep' of the finish can be maintained.
I have a cheaper Takamine that is finished in lacquer with dings; I have no idea or means to repair that and so it is left as is, a bit tatty and bruised.
Just my thoughts.
Andy
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Jun 19, 2019 8:44:55 GMT
If a ding to the shellac where to occur, the repair can be easily corrected. Andy Andy - Have you done many? "Easy" is a relative concept and in my - albeit limited - experience invisibly repairing a ding in a shellac/french polish finish isn't what I would call easy. Perhaps colins who has a lot more skill and experience than me in this area can comment. |
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 19, 2019 10:32:56 GMT
Also I'm sure garynava could make some pertinent comment here - hellooooo.... Keith |
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Jun 19, 2019 12:00:03 GMT
Compared to spray on finishes the hand rubbed finishes, both French polish and oil finish, are relatively easy to repair. With French polish, a scratch can often be taken out completely with alcohol and pumice, and can then easily be re-polished with a lightly loaded muneca. Alcohol will re-activate the shellac already on the wood and new layers will bond perfectly. As Dave said I wouldn't call it easy, as some lightness of touch and care are needed, but certainly easier than on a nitro-cellulose finish.
I do think that the spray on finishes got a bad name for killing tone because the factory made guitars used to lay it on much too thick. I've done a hundred or so hand finishes of one sort or another but only a couple of spray finishes, but with the very thin spray application (Pre-cat lacquer) I think just as good a tone is possible. Dave's our resident expert in these finishes and you only have to listen to his instruments to know that they can produce stunning tone.
A lot of the prejudice is down to the market, classical players tend to be ultra fussy about having French polish or oil finishes it's all down to tradition, so if selling in that market, probably as well to stick with the hand finishes.
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Jun 19, 2019 20:08:18 GMT
I understand the main benefit of shellac is it prevents the sap bleeding out of any knots and discolouring the colour of the final topcoat.
Oh sorry I think I may be in the wrong forum...
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 19, 2019 22:33:31 GMT
As Colin hints there is a lot of nonsense talked about French polish. It’s tough enough for me, easily repaired and very thin.
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garynava
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 460
My main instrument is: Stanley No.5
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Post by garynava on Jun 21, 2019 15:10:01 GMT
Also I'm sure garynava could make some pertinent comment here - hellooooo.... Keith Well Keith as you asked here’s my tuppence worth….. Finishing is very contentious topic (one reason that I didn’t chip in before). My personal preference is a light finish- French polish, Tru-oil etc. Over the years I’ve used various materials and none of them are without issue be it how they wear, environmental or personal health. For me shellac based products give a very attractive finish, do not impact on the sound and have no health issues. When I get a commission I do explain the pros and cons of light finishes and it’s up to the client whether or not they feel that they will be able to get on with such a finish. The problem with a guitar is that as an object it is handled so much and the finish is the interface. I know that some famous luthiers send their instruments out to be sprayed with lacquers by specialists but that’s not an approach that’s right for me. That said if I were building guitars for an unknown audience, maybe to sell on consignment in a music shop, I would consider a more robust finish and might get them sprayed, as you just don’t what abuse it may get. Maybe that's a route that josemarques might want to consider. You might find this finishing video that I did a few years ago of interest. Cheers Gary |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Jun 22, 2019 7:16:16 GMT
I love the feel of a shellac finish, it’s just perfect.
Saying that, does it last? Does it ever need to be reapplied?
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garynava
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 460
My main instrument is: Stanley No.5
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Post by garynava on Jun 22, 2019 14:55:27 GMT
I love the feel of a shellac finish, it’s just perfect. Saying that, does it last? Does it ever need to be reapplied? Yep, Martin the feel is perfect even with a very shinny neck, you don’t get that stickiness that some synthetic finishes have. Also, if you use a transparent polish (not coloured at all) it really enhances the appearance of the wood- some lacquers, particularly water based ones give a cold blueish hue. Does it last? well it was around before other finishes and probably any 19th /early 20th century instrument will be finished in shellac. I’ve seen instruments built by me, finished in shellac that are 8 to 10 years old and the finish is fine apart from the odd ding that we’ve been discussing. As others have mentioned it can be “easily” be revived/refinished. As it’s a spirit based any new finish will burn into the old and meld into one. Many lacquers are irreversible and new finish won’t bond to old- you get witness lines between the coats. Cheers Gary |
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josemarques
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 82
My main instrument is: guitar
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Post by josemarques on Jun 23, 2019 17:11:44 GMT
Thank you all for your ideas and comments Gary i dont look for anything in special, I'm a French polish addicted ahah, but I really wish to try other visions , specially in steel string guitars because, like I said, the classical guitarist has a different approach to the instrument, they are really very careful. I have done some Nitrocelulose a few years ago wen I was learning but now I dont have even the material, machines etc to do so. At this time im working in a steel strings and plan to do something like nitro or water based but I didnt stop yet to decide what or to look someone that can do it for me, well if someone knows somebody please send me the contact. Anyway I realized that most of steel strings players are more in to spray lacquer ... About the sound well I believe that is no doubt that shellac is the best for soundboard specially, even Somogyi has changed from spray to shellac after years of spray.. maybe he knows something  |
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Jo whoever he is.
