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Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 21, 2019 0:43:59 GMT
Yep - there's whole swathes of 70's Tv that would be deeply offensive today (though the B&W minstrels is more in the realms of bizarre, I think) - and yep - we all have our own comfort zones. Quite right. I'm not trying to suggest where anyone else's opinion should lie, I'm just baffled. Turning things around, why might I, as a caucasian geordie born and raised in the Byker slum, take offence at, say, a dark skinned chap from Asia dressing (with white make-up) as a nineteenth century North east labourer or miner standing by his pigeon cree, stotty cake in hand and singing Bladon Races in the best "gan canny bonnie lad" accent he could muster? Hey ho. What about if an old Etonian stood up and mocked Geordies or Yorkshire people of which I’m one “ee by gum” “ferret down your trousers” “short arms deep pockets”? Although we laugh it is insulting.
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Post by NikGnashers on Sept 21, 2019 7:29:48 GMT
Great thread !
I'm interested to know where the line is drawn. Of course, I would never want to deliberately offend anyone, but some people would be offended by almost anything, and you couldn't go through life not offending anyone at all. Aside from my love of Folk music and acoustic guitar finger-picking, I also actually love modern UK HipHop and buy albums every month. The lyrics could be seen as extremely offensive by a casual listener, but are in fact, very humorous and not intended to be taken seriously. Would the Caribbean community be offended by 10cc's dreadlock holiday ?
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 21, 2019 7:55:23 GMT
fatfingerjohn - sidestepping what any of us may feel about the rights and wrongs of this situation, I reckon you may be best going with your instinct and steering clear - you obviously don't feel comfortable with doing the song and hence you will be unable to teach it/perform it with integrity. Lack of integrity will show in any eventual performance. Hope you make what, for you and for the group, will be the right decision. Keith
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Post by bleatoid on Sept 21, 2019 8:22:24 GMT
“What about if an old Etonian stood up and mocked Geordies or Yorkshire people of which I’m one “ee by gum” “ferret down your trousers” “short arms deep pockets”? Although we laugh it is insulting.”
...but is it insulting? - and is it insulting to the degree that to prevent the risk of anyone ever being insulted, it should be banned - morally or legally?
I think we’re heading for a cultural desert if we deprive thinking human beings of the right to interpret and judge - the law is there when it is required but if we aren’t careful we can say goodbye large swathes of Shakespeare, the Life of Brian, and pretty much all newspaper cartoons - we’re back in Stalinist Russia with our Shostakovics on the edge of imprisonment depending upon how the latest piece is viewed by “them”.
Mr Kafka is never far away, is he?
I’ll shut up now.
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 21, 2019 11:59:49 GMT
I wouldn't sing it.
There is a lot of bollocks talked about Political Correctness by those who ridicule, it is basically very simple. I see no reason to upset people. After all. this is not a new subject.
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Sept 21, 2019 12:45:02 GMT
When in doubt, don’t. There is enough upset and disrespect in this world without unnecessarily adding to it, whatever the intent. It is not as if the song has any particular merit or that there aren’t other, better options.
Brian
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Post by cottonopolis on Sept 21, 2019 15:58:36 GMT
Apologies in advance if I'm being thick or insensitive here; I don't want to start a political debate or cause any discomfort - but could someone please explain to me where, exactly, the offence lies: a) in singing the song at all b) in singing the song in a Caribbean accent c) in singing the song dressed and "made up" in faux Carribean outfit / make-up Peter As a 60 year old white Mancunian, I have never been belittled for my heritage, race or skin colour. Though I imagine if you have been portrayed as sub human, been called `Boy`, as a Black adult, untrustworthy etc etc. Then I would be raging if somebody thought they would drees up as a Minstrel, sang in a mock dialect etc. So I would say, leave this crap where it belongs, in the dustbin.
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Post by cottonopolis on Sept 21, 2019 16:07:33 GMT
Hi, Here's probably a new one for you to ponder. I have a suggestion from one of my guitar group that we should perform 'The Banana Boat Song'. (OK, I know .... but). However, I am concerned about the political correctness of this, particularly in the light of the headlines this week ..... 'Justin Trudeau pictured in another brownface photo singing Day-O (The Banana Boat Song) in Afro wig after brownface row'. Clearly we wouldn't be wearing black make-up etc but the song probably only works if sung with a carribbean lilt/accent and it so happens we are a predominantly white group (I must stress by coincidence and not rule or design). To remind you here are a couple of lines from the song .... 'Six han' seven han' eight han' bunch, Daylight come an' I wanna go home'. I know the world has gone totally mad on political correctness and I wouldn't want this thread to be an excuse for people to either express their support generally for such correctness or vent their frustration about it. My instinct is to avoid this sort of song, but what about other similar songs, either work songs or spirituals; is it OK for predominantly white people to be singing these with probable accentual overtones? I know this is a bit deep for a Friday morning........ FFJ The problem with the term Politically Correct, in my opinion. Is that it is used by people who yearn for the days of Bernard Manning and Love Thy Neighbour. Just like the newer Snowflake nonsense. Women, Gay Men and women, people with disabilities and Black/Asian people have had to fight to be accepted as equal, to white hetrosexual people. And they are not there yet. So I would say, your instincts are correct, don't do the song. Though if you do, don't be surprised if somebody is offended and pulls you up about it.
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Post by Amit on Sept 21, 2019 17:16:43 GMT
Apologies in advance if I'm being thick or insensitive here; I don't want to start a political debate or cause any discomfort - but could someone please explain to me where, exactly, the offence lies: a) in singing the song at all b) in singing the song in a Caribbean accent c) in singing the song dressed and "made up" in faux Carribean outfit / make-up Peter As a 60 year old white Mancunian, I have never been belittled for my heritage, race or skin colour. Though I imagine if you have been portrayed as sub human, been called `Boy`, as a Black adult, untrustworthy etc etc. Then I would be raging if somebody thought they would drees up as a Minstrel, sang in a mock dialect etc. So I would say, leave this crap where it belongs, in the dustbin. Bingo
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Post by Amit on Sept 21, 2019 17:23:50 GMT
Turning things around, why might I, as a caucasian geordie born and raised in the Byker slum, take offence at, say, a dark skinned chap from Asia dressing (with white make-up) as a nineteenth century North east labourer or miner standing by his pigeon cree, stotty cake in hand and singing Bladon Races in the best "gan canny bonnie lad" accent he could muster? Hey ho. In my view the two things are not comparable in the slightest. Particularly when considering historical context.
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skipellis
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Post by skipellis on Sept 22, 2019 2:51:57 GMT
My take is this: political correctness is one of the worst things to ever be forced on humanity. To me (an ultra conservative yank), there are NO sacred cows, nowhere, no how....period. I wish Monty Python and Amos n Andy would come back. There is just too much 'snowflake'mentality in the world today. Folks (especially young ones) need to develop a thicker skin if they ever plan on getting along in the world. And in the 'States', we need mandatory 2 year military service for everyone physically able once they hit 18 years of age. I saw a lot of 18 and 19 year old people grow up a lot during the Vietnam War (myself included). Nowadays, if you get your feelings hurt, you go find a 'safe' place....that's just BS in my world. Do we really want these people running the world? I certainly don't....of course, I'm old and won't be around to see the results, so I don't really care.
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Post by NikGnashers on Sept 22, 2019 5:59:29 GMT
Hi, Here's probably a new one for you to ponder. I have a suggestion from one of my guitar group that we should perform 'The Banana Boat Song'. (OK, I know .... but). However, I am concerned about the political correctness of this, particularly in the light of the headlines this week ..... 'Justin Trudeau pictured in another brownface photo singing Day-O (The Banana Boat Song) in Afro wig after brownface row'. Clearly we wouldn't be wearing black make-up etc but the song probably only works if sung with a carribbean lilt/accent and it so happens we are a predominantly white group (I must stress by coincidence and not rule or design). To remind you here are a couple of lines from the song .... 'Six han' seven han' eight han' bunch, Daylight come an' I wanna go home'. I know the world has gone totally mad on political correctness and I wouldn't want this thread to be an excuse for people to either express their support generally for such correctness or vent their frustration about it. My instinct is to avoid this sort of song, but what about other similar songs, either work songs or spirituals; is it OK for predominantly white people to be singing these with probable accentual overtones? I know this is a bit deep for a Friday morning........ FFJ The problem with the term Politically Correct, in my opinion. Is that it is used by people who yearn for the days of Bernard Manning and Love Thy Neighbour. Just like the newer Snowflake nonsense. Women, Gay Men and women, people with disabilities and Black/Asian people have had to fight to be accepted as equal, to white hetrosexual people. And they are not there yet. So I would say, your instincts are correct, don't do the song. Though if you do, don't be surprised if somebody is offended and pulls you up about it. Good points sir. I do however think, that a slight generalisation of people is evident, although I do understand the point you are making. I think it is perfectly acceptable to enjoy (for example) comedy, where the comic is using every nationality/race/creed/colour in his 'act', even his own, so long as the context is right. We English are, and always have been, very inclined to make fun of ourselves, and the rivalry between neighbouring Counties for example, and I would not like to see this being classed as 'off limits' as it makes us what we are, and is in fact, very amusing. Certain 1970's comics seemed to only make their jokes about a certain race/colour/creed/etc and that definitely comes across as targeting for the sake of it, which is not funny and should be classed as 'wrong'. I don't think this particular song should be sung by anyone, because it's rubbish.
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Post by geddarby on Sept 22, 2019 7:55:25 GMT
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Post by jackorion on Sept 22, 2019 9:00:28 GMT
I think that if you have to question 'is this racist?' then, on some level, it is.
I also think that asking if you should be offended if a 'dark skinned chap from Asia' pretends to be a geordie you're missing the point - as far as I'm aware Geordies have never been denied housing or work, been classed as an inferior race, had their forebearers traded as property, been beaten up , had disgusting filthy names shouted at them in the street and all other kinds of terrible experiences simply because the colour of their skin is different to the 'dark skinned chap from Asia'.
Nearly 60'000 US Soldiers died in the Vietnam war and anything up to 250'000 South Vietnamese soldiers died - that's 300'000 people who didn't do any growing up.
'Political Correctness gone mad' arguments puzzle me - are you saying that sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia etc etc shouldn't be regarded as unacceptable? There will always be people who are quick to take offence when, perhaps, offence is not intentionally meant, and there are always people who intentionally mean offence and will claim they don't. Even though it's an aggravating phrase 'Political Correctness' is not really about 'snowflakes' or being 'woke' or stopping people expressing themselves - it's about being aware that society has moved on from the days where white heterosexual men could do and say whatever the hell they liked to anyone else because they held all the social power.
I'm not going to get involved in a debate on here as I don't think internet forums are the place for these discussions as it's easy to misinterpret words on a screen as more aggressive and pointed than when they're said face to face - I'm not a fan of censorship but I think the mods should keep a very close eye on this thread.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Sept 22, 2019 9:30:15 GMT
Hi all,
Thanks very much for all who have contributed; to me it just shows that the broader debate on PC is many faceted and will have strong opinions on both sides (and in the middle).
I did say in my original thread 'I wouldn't want this thread to be an excuse for people to either express their support generally for such correctness or vent their frustration about it.' But I suppose it was inevitable that, in trying to express an opinion about the narrowness of my question then the broader arguments would develop. As Jackorian says perhaps the thread should now be closed down to further input as I agree this Forum is about acoustic and music and we should try to keep it related to that.
My original question concerned whether to play such a song with the potential that it may raise offence in some quarters and I think my original thoughts that it is best avoided still hold. I do think PC has gone way overboard generally but my job through my guitar group is to entertain and not offend and certainly is not set up to be controversial or challenging to the audience. I tend to go with Leo's summary that the issue in this case is largely with the listener and as such I must use this as a good guide and try to assess potential listener reaction.
Thanks for all you excellent contributions.
If the 'mods' now wish to close the thread that's OK with me.
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