|
Post by scorpiodog on Jul 23, 2024 9:54:43 GMT
I had a good natured disagreement with a friend in the pub yesterday, and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion here.
He suggested that I should use one of these apps one uses to store one's repertoire and scrolls down at the correct speed for each song (evidently I don't use one or I'd know what some of them are called). So I told him that, as far as I'm able, I prefer to have nothing in front of me to cut the audience interaction. His take on this (and I am summarising substantially) was that, if reading from a score is good enough for world class orchestral musicians, it's good enough for him. Then we discussed that while this is true for the body of the orchestra (or a dance band) it's rarely the case for a soloist to work from a score, and so on, and so on for about half an hour til we got bored and started discussing something else (it was politics, but that's not relevant here).
So here's my take on the whole thing, and I accept fully that it's only my subjective opinion.
My default is not to use an aide memoire, but I will use a chord chart for rehearsals, or on the odd occasion when I'm asked to play something I haven't had time to prepare. I try never to use a lyric sheet, but, again, in extremis I will. I do not judge people who regularly sing from lyric sheets (or the iPad apps), I think it's a personal choice, but for me, my style is to interact with my audience, and I can't do that unless I have eye contact as often as possible. In my locality there was a musician who ran a folk club (he was a prickly old bastard at the best of times) who refused to let anyone sing if they needed anything in front of them, and he was vehement about it.
I do take a different attitude towards ensemble playing of any type (even a duo) because I recognise that a temporary lapse of memory or a brain fart can interrupt the flow of the music. But I still don't like it much when the performer uses whatever's on his music stand as a crutch rather than an aide memoire.
I think I may be a bit weird here. I do have other weird rules for myself, for example, I avoid a capo whenever I can, preferring to learn a song in the key in which I can sing it.
So, ignoring the last point, what do we all think about the use of memory joggers when we perform?
|
|
|
Post by delb0y on Jul 23, 2024 11:28:42 GMT
There's been some quite vehement posts on the jazz guitar board this last 24 hours, so there must be something in the air.
As a performer I always try and learn a song that I'm going to play live. Chords, melody, lyrics, riffs, stops, starts, key changes, etc etc. I think that's the least I can do if someone is paying me, or giving me their time and attention. The fact I only play out very occasionally means this can be a lot of effort for little return, but, like you, I think eye contact, having no barrier between band and audience, is important.
That said, more and more people I know are going the opposite way. I know song writers who have an iPad on a stand for lyrics, even their own. And another musical partner has upwards of 800 songs in an iPad, any of which he's happy to play at a gig, but he says, no way can he recall that many tunes.
As an audience member I prefer it when there's no iPad, no music stand, maybe just a set list on the floor.
Derek
|
|
|
Post by delb0y on Jul 23, 2024 11:30:15 GMT
Oh, and on the other point, I love capos! But that's for another thread.
|
|
cesspit
Busker
![*](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/oCoJSxdUaT2oYSr9Vk0u.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/oCoJSxdUaT2oYSr9Vk0u.png)
Posts: 74
My main instrument is: Ovation USA
|
Post by cesspit on Jul 23, 2024 11:53:05 GMT
delbOy You are a man after my own heart. Whilst I have always played in bands, not solo, I firmly believe part of the musicians trade is the performance. Learn the song and the lyrics so you don't need prompting, I think in the band setting it looks unprofessional. I've always aimed (sometimes unsuccessfully) to put on a show, engage the audience make them feel part of the performance. Funnily enough I've never used a capo live, though I can see the need in an acoustic setting. We used to tape the set list on the floor but often deviated from it depending on audience response. As for the orchestra argument, you go to listen to an orchestra but you go to see a band or artist. I think there is a distinct difference.
|
|
|
Post by malcolm on Jul 23, 2024 12:52:56 GMT
As a solo performer, I never use chord charts, lyric sheets, or apps, I feel if I don't know a song properly in my head then I shouldn't be playing it in front of an audience, however, I realise that more and more musicians are using them. A group setting is different especially if only playing together occasionally or playing complex music. It also depends on how much you can successfully store in your head. Stefan Grapelli apparently said that while he learned and could play perfectly well by ear, he had to learn to read music to play with others and to remember the tunes.
|
|
|
Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 23, 2024 13:26:25 GMT
Bit of an old chestnut this one, but I'll re-state my view if only to balamce the books a little.
Gone are the days when I could remember the lyrics of around 100 songs and play them without a crib sheet or comfort blanket. But I reached, a few years back, and guess many others will inevitably do so whether they like it or not, the age when the memory doesn't work. I can remember loads of those lyrics (and chords) from 40 years ago. But, even if I've played a recent song to death dozens of times and rehearsed it like mad, the part of my brain that allows access to the lyrics (if indeed they reached the storage box in the first place) no longer functions. Annoyingly even songs that I've written myself are just a jumbled mess in there. (Also, strangely, chords for a song, and it's melody, are still available, but not the lyrics; different part of the brain).
So, simple choice, does my lack of memory for lyrics (and it's the same for dozens of other things I do daily; my pockets are full of lists, many of which I forgot I had) mean I should be barred from singing and playing with a crib sheet of some sort? Does tolerance for my condition (which millions share) not matter? Meanwhile I'll use a safety blanket where I'm allowed and thankfully there are many places where this is still OK. (I do think it's somewhat different if you're a professional performer, although even then with modern technology perhaps oldies could do with a bit of help?)
I respect other people's views but feel there is room for us both.
(I have moved most of my stuff, over 300 songs, onto a tablet rather than carry around tonnes of paper).
FFJ
|
|
|
Post by scorpiodog on Jul 23, 2024 14:26:56 GMT
So, simple choice, does my lack of memory for lyrics (and it's the same for dozens of other things I do daily; my pockets are full of lists, many of which I forgot I had) mean I should be barred from singing and playing with a crib sheet of some sort? Does tolerance for my condition (which millions share) not matter? Meanwhile I'll use a safety blanket where I'm allowed and thankfully there are many places where this is still OK. (I do think it's somewhat different if you're a professional performer, although even then with modern technology perhaps oldies could do with a bit of help?) I respect other people's views but feel there is room for us both.(I have moved most of my stuff, over 300 songs, onto a tablet rather than carry around tonnes of paper). FFJ Sorry you seem to feel so miffed, John, but I've carefully examined my own post, and those of the others who have posted so far, and I can see no indication that's anybody was disparaging people who do use memory joggers. So in reply to the points I've hoghlighted from your reply: 1) no, of course you shouldn't be barred from anything. Anybody brave enough to get up and perform in front of others deserves as much encouragement as possible. 2) Absolutely, which is the spirit of this lovely forum, as we both know very well. And that was the spirit in which I started this thread. I would have been very surprised if this had been a one sided discussion.
|
|
|
Post by fatfingerjohn on Jul 23, 2024 15:29:21 GMT
So, simple choice, does my lack of memory for lyrics (and it's the same for dozens of other things I do daily; my pockets are full of lists, many of which I forgot I had) mean I should be barred from singing and playing with a crib sheet of some sort? Does tolerance for my condition (which millions share) not matter? Meanwhile I'll use a safety blanket where I'm allowed and thankfully there are many places where this is still OK. (I do think it's somewhat different if you're a professional performer, although even then with modern technology perhaps oldies could do with a bit of help?) I respect other people's views but feel there is room for us both.(I have moved most of my stuff, over 300 songs, onto a tablet rather than carry around tonnes of paper). FFJ Sorry you seem to feel so miffed, John, but I've carefully examined my own post, and those of the others who have posted so far, and I can see no indication that's anybody was disparaging people who do use memory joggers. So in reply to the points I've hoghlighted from your reply: 1) no, of course you shouldn't be barred from anything. Anybody brave enough to get up and perform in front of others deserves as much encouragement as possible. 2) Absolutely, which is the spirit of this lovely forum, as we both know very well. And that was the spirit in which I started this thread. I would have been very surprised if this had been a one sided discussion. Oops! Me and my big mouth/fat finger. I wasn't meaning to specifically criticise the previous posters, more a general comment on what I have heard/experienced from a few places and certainly not in our Forum get-togethers where 'anything goes'. I do feel quite strongly that some people, again not pointing the finger at our forum group, think that people who use 'aids' do so because they can't be bothered to learn what they play which can be far from the truth. 😧
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 35,026
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Jul 23, 2024 16:07:53 GMT
I wrote a long post on this earlier this afternoon - and managed to "lose" it somehow. I'll try again, hopefully less long-windedly.
Some great responses to this excellent thread. here's my take -
When I started performing, mostly in folk clubs to listening audiences, there was no question of mics or music stands. It never seemed a problem to me or anyone else to remember what to play and sing, and the audiences were attentive enough so those at the back of the room could hear well enough.
But, 60 or so years on (and for quite a while before !) things are very different. Although, like FFJ, I can remember chords and stuff alright, my memory can't keep up with words nowadays (except for songs I learned 60 years ago) and, with generally less attentive audiences in many venues, amplification of voices and instruments has become the norm, even if only for the benefit (and rightly so) of hearing loop users.
I would always choose to perform literally unplugged when possible, but bowing to the inevitable is more realistic in most situations. This, for me, means a vocal mic and a music stand. As both these things form a barrier between me and the punters I try to keep these barriers as unobtrusive as possible. I prefer to stand to perform, and have my music stand set low, and as flat as possible to present the least visual obstruction for the punters who, somewhat surprisingly, sometimes want to see me, or my instrument at least! I use large font printed lyric sheets with a quick downward eye glance for reassurance if nec at the start of some verses in order to maintain connection with the punters, which is vital.
In the situation so far described the microphone and stand are the main visual obstruction - much more so than a discreetly placed music stand. I minimise this by keeping my vocal mic a little below my gob and singing across from slightly further away than many might, though the overall sound and venue put a limit on this in some instances. Even then I try to avoid entering for the Microphone Swallowing contest as I think this is often a visual impediment for the punters, though as I said, may be necessary in some venues and situations, though not normally with solo/duo performances. Having the boom approach from the side rather than vertically can help visually too.
Seated performers can still achieve visibility and connection with their audiences, though equipment positioning becomes even more crucial. As a punter I prefer not to experience the face of a seated performer being completely obscured by a music stand (or electronic gadget) at their eye level when it could be set lower. Even then, if the music is OK, that's fine with me.
In summary, do music stands spoil a performance? They can, but they don't have to - it has more to do with how and why they are used than their use per se. And planty of other things can be equally distracting - microphones (as mentioned), but also excessive capo fiddling/retuning, multiple instrument changes etc - but, as these take place between songs, they can be turned into chances to chat with an audience
As a punter I really don't mind how performers do their thing, as long as they aren't too shoe-gazery. I hugely admire those performers who can strut their stuff without reference to word sheets! But even pro performers seem to use electronic gadget thingies for words more often. I suppose many of them are getting on a bit too!
Keith
Sorry, still longwinded!
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 25,410
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Jul 23, 2024 17:18:28 GMT
Can I stick my twopenne'th in? If I'm performing a song someone else has written I will do my VERY best to learn it so that I can perform it without a lyric sheet. This is aided by the fact that I can listen/sing along to the recording ad infinitum to really drum the lyrics into my head. For one forum meeting I had a 'set list' of 3 songs I was learning that I played on a loop whilst driving to Dundee to visit me daughter - and back again. My goodness, I knew them songs off by heart! Some songs just don't sink in though. 'Everything In Heaven Comes Apart' (Martyn Joseph) springs to mind. I simply don't trust myself no matter how often I listen to it. I can singalong to a recording word perfect - but perform it by myself? Nah. And then there's songs that I write myself. Almost without exception these are the equivalent of Mayflies - written for a specific point of time/event, played once and never played again. Occasionally written and performed on the same day. I'll be honest, I can't be arsed learning them, there often isn't the time to do so. Nor should anybody else bother learning 'em ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/rBu6Z_cEBMxaUS4Ea5Qu.gif) I agree with all those (which I think is everybody) who've said that, if this was how they made their money; it'd be different. But for me it's not, so it isn't. I was talking with doc this afternoon, and we were both talking of working up set lists for September. I guess you'll be able to judge our efforts then ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/rBu6Z_cEBMxaUS4Ea5Qu.gif) (My view is that I need 3 songs for the Circle of Death and, after that, everyone's either in bed or too inebriated/beyound caring and I can fall back on the classics ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/rBu6Z_cEBMxaUS4Ea5Qu.gif) )
|
|
|
Post by borborygmus on Jul 23, 2024 17:38:48 GMT
The use of lyric sheets and prompts by professional musicians is more common than one might think. There are products for this, like the Stageprompter - look at this list of users. I am agreeing with Keith that these things need to be discreet, and not detract from the performance, but I have no problem with them in principle. Peter
|
|
|
Post by martinrowe on Jul 23, 2024 19:07:37 GMT
I think I may be viewed as being a bit radical but isn't this missing the point. Here goes: Some pieces of music, live and recorded, knock me for six e.g. Rhiannon Giddins singing a song (can't remember its name) at Bristol Colston Hall a few years ago. Dylan's version of One more cup of Coffee from Desire, Emmylou Harris singing Boulder to Birmingham. What matters to me is whether a piece of music 'gets through'. If someone sings when reading from a sheet of A4 that is two inches from their nose and it ' gets through' then that's fine by me. If someone sings without any crutches and it 'gets through' then that's fine by me as well. Apart from that, I agree with you scorpiodog . By the way, I'm a bit disappointed you had a discussion about politics - it only encourages them. I'm sure it makes them think they're superior and important. There we go - that's my tuppence. I've been wrong before, etc, etc
|
|
|
Post by malcolm on Jul 23, 2024 19:45:41 GMT
As a follow up to my previous post, I wouldn't have a problem using a prompt sheet or app if I needed one, that would be like refusing a crutch if I had a broken leg. What I notice more and more is young people who seem to think they don't need to learn the song in their head before they perform it. Consequently they never commit it to memory in the first place, I think you could call them the "karaoke" generation.
I travel a fair bit in Vietnam and this is exactly what they do, they find it amazing that I have memorised so many songs. It simply doesn't occur to them to learn the lyrics when they are available on the smartphone. A cultural and generational difference, not right or wrong, simply different. I do genuinely believe that this dependence on technology is going to be harmful to the human brain in the long run, but that's a different discussion and unlikely to bother us old geezers very much.
|
|
|
Post by lavaman on Jul 23, 2024 21:57:17 GMT
I think life's too short to worry about this too much. I read somewhere that Mick Jagger uses a screen at the front of the stage that not only reminds him of the words but also reminds him which city he's playing at.
I always have a set list that tells me the running order, detailing the tuning and capo position for every song. I sometimes use a chord / lyric sheet if I'm playing a new song.
Iain
|
|
cesspit
Busker
![*](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/oCoJSxdUaT2oYSr9Vk0u.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/oCoJSxdUaT2oYSr9Vk0u.png)
Posts: 74
My main instrument is: Ovation USA
|
Post by cesspit on Jul 24, 2024 7:11:59 GMT
I don't do smart phones and the like, as a technophobe I just couldn't cope. I do know that when I've rehearsed songs in the past, if I have it all written down I end up relying on the text and chords to play it, whereas if I learn the song from listening repeatedly it tends to stick. I clearly have some learning issues. ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/3218224/images/_g1DVDIn6z4r1ytlD55x.gif)
|
|