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Post by NikGnashers on Sept 25, 2024 16:02:16 GMT
I'm not sure there is a 'correct' position as a one-size-fits-all. Watching Tommy Emmanuel, his thumb is all over the place, and it doesn't seem to restrict his playing .....
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Sept 25, 2024 16:07:13 GMT
Its like Horowitz, the great pianist. Every piano teacher says you should never lay your fingers flat on the keyboard, really bad form. But that's how he played.
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Post by borborygmus on Sept 25, 2024 18:00:27 GMT
I'm not sure there is a 'correct' position as a one-size-fits-all. Watching Tommy Emmanuel, his thumb is all over the place, and it doesn't seem to restrict his playing ..... There is definitely an "optimal/correct" left hand and thumb position in the classical guitar world. If you watch any of the performance videos on this channel, you will see how this works in action. This absolutely carries over to the steel string guitar. If you watch the classically trained Will McNicol you will see a left hand position which is heavily influenced in the classical tradition. Personally, I wouldn't want to emulate Tommy Emmanuel. Peter
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Sept 25, 2024 20:03:45 GMT
Thankfully I don't intend becoming part of the classical guitar world
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Sept 25, 2024 20:39:34 GMT
Thankfully I don't intend becoming part of the classical guitar world ... that doesn't mean there aren't lots of things you can learn from it that will be very useful! Keith
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Sept 26, 2024 11:40:48 GMT
To be honest with you I'm neglecting my piano playing because of my insistence on learning an instrument that I find really difficult to get to grips with.
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Post by NikGnashers on Sept 26, 2024 15:04:28 GMT
I'm not sure there is a 'correct' position as a one-size-fits-all. Watching Tommy Emmanuel, his thumb is all over the place, and it doesn't seem to restrict his playing ..... There is definitely an "optimal/correct" left hand and thumb position in the classical guitar world. If you watch any of the performance videos on this channel, you will see how this works in action. This absolutely carries over to the steel string guitar. If you watch the classically trained Will McNicol you will see a left hand position which is heavily influenced in the classical tradition. Personally, I wouldn't want to emulate Tommy Emmanuel. Peter Thank you for the reply Peter. I certainly wouldn't argue that there are correct hand positions and placements for any instrument, if you adhere to the strict 'teacher/tutor' studies. Such a 'taught' thumb position might work for most people, and for sure, it's something learners should try to adapt, because there is a reason why teachers/tutors advise students to use it. My opinion on this, is purely a personal one. I used Mr Emmanuel as an example, because he has never had a lesson as such, and simply picked up music from playing with his parents and family, initially the drums, and then guitar. He found what worked best for himself, by trail and error, and the 'correct' thumb position would have probably allowed him to play some pieces more easily, but on the flipside, he would not be able to play some things he can play brilliantly now. In the same way, the much covered 'Freight Train' by Elizabeth Cotten, taught herself to play a right handed guitar upside down, as she was left handed herself. There really isn't a correct thumb position for this, but it didn't hold her back either. Or Ringo Starr playing a right handed drum kit, left handed, I'm sure a drum tutor would never teach this. Or Jimi Hendrix .... etc So my point is : Yes, absolutely try to use correct (as a teacher/tutor would suggest) hand positions, to see if they work for you, because this is a tried and tested way of doing things. But, never limit yourself to any strict techniques, and never think that if you do something differently, it is 'wrong', because a 'taught' way of doing something may not be the best way for you personally. We would never have many of the amazing artists, or songs, in our rich music history, if everyone adhered to exactly one way of doing something, such as playing an instrument. When I was 30 yrs old, I studied and passed (at the highest grade of all the students on my particular course), an advanced National Diploma in Music Technology. OK, not the greatest achievement in the world, but I am still proud of it. We were taught certain ways to do things, and most were great, but some were very restrictive, and did not automatically make certain people better musicians. In fact, I'd argue some of the best music ever made, has been by self taught musicians, who never had a lesson in their lives, and played in completely the wrong way according to the 'teacher/tutor strict learning process. I remember programming a piano chord, which sounded amazing in the piece I had composed, and the tutor asked what chord it was because it sounded very interesting. I replied I hadn't a clue, so he tried working it out, and realised it was a 9 note chord completely unplayable in a physical sense on the piano (not enough fingers !). After about an hour he came back to me and said he had worked out what the chord was. I argued that unless I was trying to sell the piece, and needed to transcribe it to notation, it didn't matter to me what it was called. It sounded great and that was all that mattered. He agreed. Most exciting new musical genres through the ages, have happened because the artist had done something different, or used an instrument in a way it was never designed to do, or indeed abused in some way. I actually did a module on this, very interesting stuff I thought ! So yes, a taught way should always be considered, because it may be the best way. But (in my own personal opinion), no one way can ever be considered the correct way for an individual, nor indeed the very best way for them to personally play. Long post, but I hope you can see where my opinion comes from, and also hope you can understand why I have this opinion
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Sept 26, 2024 15:25:13 GMT
I'd argue some of the best music ever made, has been by self taught musicians, who never had a lesson in their lives, and played in completely the wrong way according to the 'teacher/tutor strict learning process. That's very kind of you, NikGnashers , I'm blushing. Eh? What? Oh.
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Post by borborygmus on Sept 26, 2024 16:17:39 GMT
So yes, a taught way should always be considered, because it may be the best way. But (in my own personal opinion), no one way can ever be considered the correct way for an individual, nor indeed the very best way for them to personally play. I could not agree more! I did mean to add more to my original post, but before I was finished with my complete thought, I was called in a somewhat stern manner to dinner... Thank you for your well-argued response. I wasn't intending to promote the "classic" method as the only way. For many, many people - that would take all the fun out of it. Some rigour and technique can promote "better" playing. What "better" means in this context is a moot point, one you made very well. I play steel string, some electric, and classical guitar, mostly because I'm a dilettante and a butterfly about these sorts of things. I'd be a better player if I just focussed on one aspect of guitar playing, but what's the fun in that? I mix up my guitar lessons with both steel string and classical too. I mention this because I do think the more meticulous nature of learning classical pieces helps me be a better steel string acoustic player. Well, at least a little bit... Anyway, I think we are on the same page. Peter P.S. I am not questioning Tommy Emmanuel's technical skill - he's just not to my taste. I saw him at a festival once, and afterwards a friend came up to me and said how brilliant it was. My reply was no, "he just ripped the soul out of that instrument and stomped on it," or words to that effect.
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Post by jonnymosco on Sept 27, 2024 16:51:44 GMT
Despite the obvious that good technique can allow you to express yourself on your instrument and to play the music you hear in your head and soul... inefficient and inappropriate technique and posture can lead to serious physical damage.
It is important to always aim to play without excess pressure and to reduce tension and the thumb placement is fundamental regarding this approach.
The LH fingertip pressure should be very light, up to the frets and to a certain extent using the weight of the arm to pull into the fingertips and this is only possible if the thumb is in the correct position.
If you play the guitar for ten minutes a week, this is probably not helpful advice, but if you play regularly it is an important consideration.
Jonny
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Post by earwighoney on Sept 27, 2024 17:47:15 GMT
Despite the obvious that good technique can allow you to express yourself on your instrument and to play the music you hear in your head and soul... inefficient and inappropriate technique and posture can lead to serious physical damage. It is important to always aim to play without excess pressure and to reduce tension and the thumb placement is fundamental regarding this approach.
The LH fingertip pressure should be very light, up to the frets and to a certain extent using the weight of the arm to pull into the fingertips and this is only possible if the thumb is in the correct position.If you play the guitar for ten minutes a week, this is probably not helpful advice, but if you play regularly it is an important consideration. Jonny
Some fine tips from Jonny as ever, for left hand technique and even though it's a completely different subject I'd like to extend it to right hand technique too. I remember when I first started learning fingerpicking I'd play with a lot of pressure on a guitar with incredibly narrow string spacing. It took a while to diagnose where my right hand pains were coming from. Once I was able to work out how to correct this issues (light touch, guitar with wider string spacing at the saddle) I really enjoyed playing the guitar much more.
Self taught technique is always bound to have a few dead ends and mishaps along the way. IMO, I think it's truly wonderful for those who are unable to afford proper lessons there is a wealth of knowledge on YT but it can be quite overwhelming for where to look IMO a good teacher is incredibly valuable, especially in person. This applies to a lot of things not just playing guitar!
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minorkey
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Post by minorkey on Sept 27, 2024 18:24:27 GMT
Re frets. I find that if I don't apply pressure I get a lot of buzz. And forget barre chords. Buzz all over the place! I need to look into that.
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Post by jonnymosco on Sept 30, 2024 20:06:36 GMT
Re frets. I find that if I don't apply pressure I get a lot of buzz. And forget barre chords. Buzz all over the place! I need to look into that. First check your action, then your posture and position, then apply the advice I gave in my previous post. Always aim to play with no tension... Jonny
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Post by martinrowe on Sept 30, 2024 20:50:02 GMT
You might be in a good place. I read the other day about a tip from Julian Lage. It went something like this: lighten the pressure you put on the strings, and keep on lightening the pressure until you get buzzing. Now apply only as much (the 'only as much' is important) pressure so that the strings sound the note. You will now be using the minimum pressure needed to fret the note and play the guitar - this is what you want. Minimum pressure is related to no tension. Hope it helps.
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minorkey
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On book 3 of the Guitarist's Way, thanks Keith
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Post by minorkey on Sept 30, 2024 22:54:28 GMT
I just think its bad finger placement on my part. Its like my fingers can't reach properly. Especially the ring finger and pinky.(Not such a problem with ukulele)
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