missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 20, 2013 17:32:20 GMT
Having realised that this is mainly a folk music forum, it made me wonder . . .
I'm not after a dictionary definition, but wondered what most people understand by it, especially those who play it.
My first thoughts were:-
(i) A certain style of music which was popular in the 70's when people like Mike Harding were on TV a lot.
(ii) Traditional music played or sung by the folk of a particular country.
(iii) Music of any era sung or played by the folk of any country. This could include steel bands, Flamenco, blues, bluegrass, etc.
What would be excluded? Manufactured, computerized pop? Classical, which is formal and has a history of being controlled, commissioned, defined, etc, by the upper classes?
I'm all in favour of 'crossover' and the questioning of boundaries. If you're a purist, why can't we celebrate the pure and the impure? To me, there's nothing quite as moving as hearing a real person playing a real instrument. I get the feeling that Sungha Jung isn't a folk musician, but why isn't he?
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Nov 20, 2013 17:46:16 GMT
Hmm... I'm not entirely sure I agree with your premise, missclarktree, that this is mainly a folk music forum. Unless music played on acoustic instruments is, by default, folk music. I play very little 'traditional' music (mostly because it's too difficult!) but I guess acoustic music was/is primarily played in 'folk clubs' and maybe that is where the problem lies. For example, I wouldn't call jwdaubney's music 'folk' and I'm not sure that Men In Black (of which scorpiodog is a member) would categorise their set list as folk. I don't think my output is particularly folky other than in the sense that it usually relates to an issue or topic which is contemporary, although it's played acoustically. I even, gently, tries to take the mickey out of traditional folk music in my offering for the CBT road trip mandolin: A Traditional Song. Is Billy Bragg a folk musician? I think, and I hope, that this remains a forum where acoustic music reigns supreme - of whatever genre and all are welcome, and made too feel welcome
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alig
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Post by alig on Nov 20, 2013 18:03:41 GMT
Hmm. Tricky. All of the above.
Labels... kinda suck (in my opinion), although I appreciate they are useful.
Just looked at the Wiki definition and the introductory paragraphs seem to nail it down (ish) and include your initial thoughts.
I've always felt that music was music and the boundaries where different genres overlapped were exciting. It's a very catholic (as in 'universal') thing - all things to all men.
How would you describe your own taste in music? If I'm asked what kind of guitarist I am; what sort of music I play, I tend to say I've done all sorts but at the moment I'm really enjoying...
Perhaps it'd be easier to define by saying what Folk Music isn't and see what's left over.
Good luck with your quest!
Alasdair.
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Nov 20, 2013 18:32:19 GMT
Hmm. Tricky. All of the above. Labels... kinda suck (in my opinion), although I appreciate they are useful. Just looked at the Wiki definition and the introductory paragraphs seem to nail it down (ish) and include your initial thoughts. I've always felt that music was music and the boundaries where different genres overlapped were exciting. It's a very catholic (as in 'universal') thing - all things to all men. How would you describe your own taste in music? If I'm asked what kind of guitarist I am; what sort of music I play, I tend to say I've done all sorts but at the moment I'm really enjoying... Perhaps it'd be easier to define by saying what Folk Music isn't and see what's left over. Good luck with your quest! Alasdair. Great post...although I feel that the only "people" that benefit from labels are search engines and I tunes and their equivalents... Might as well try and define "LOVE" or "LIKE [in the teenage language]" etc etc ..
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Post by jonnymosco on Nov 20, 2013 18:49:02 GMT
I suppose Sungha Jung plays a folk instrument, but wouldn't recognise what we here in the UK call folk music. What he plays is great, but hardly pushing any musical boundaries.
I find a lot of trad English folk music very painful and would rather add a cutaway to my Kostal with a rasp than listen to it.
Contemporary fingerstyle sums up what inspires me (crossover/eclectic), but if we're into labels, that has its roots in New Age music which I find naff and pretty offensive to the ears.
Jonny
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Post by K Tresp on Nov 20, 2013 19:57:52 GMT
It is a really interesting post but one which opens up a whole can of worms.
I would very much agree with Andrew and Alisdair's views.
Good music is just good music and attempts to categorise or pigeonhole music into genres or labels is unhelpful. I the pigeonholing is, I believe, generally foisted on musicians by the industry (aka "the man") or by wholly derivative and unoriginal bands/musicians. Most of the interesting stuff and best players tend to go on around the margins or where there is cross-pollination between different influences. The debate is not helped now by things like iTunes mandating genres.
I also dont get a sense that this is mainly a folk music forum and certainly, although i love a lot of music which might be categorised as "folk", it is only a small part of what I would play or listen to and only a small part of the acoustic guitar repertoire.
Although it is before my time, I seem to recall it being reported (on the fabulous Bert Jansch Acoustic Routes DVD) that guitar was frowned upon in some of the traditional "folk singing" clubs in the 60s until it really took off.
"Folk" usually includes acoustic instruments but acoustic instruments can and, thank goodness are, used for so much more than "Folk".
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 21:45:39 GMT
Folk music, to my mind, is music that is of the people- in this respect that is exactly what this forum is all about, sharing what we do, creating music that is very much indicative of the community that is our forum.
I don't think folk music has to sound like anything really, or have any particular instruments. After all, isn't punk the ultimate folk music? This was music created by, and for, the alienated youth of the 70's that didn't like what was going on around them, and didn't feel the progressive rock that was popular at the time reflected their own hopes, desires and aspirations. The same can be said of Rock n Roll…or blues
Music is music to my mind,
Robbie
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Post by earwighoney on Nov 20, 2013 22:40:31 GMT
Having realised that this is mainly a folk music forum, it made me wonder . . .
I'm not after a dictionary definition, but wondered what most people understand by it, especially those who play it.
I don't think this is a 'folk music' forum, if you'd heard my 25 minute minimal improvisations that put you off such an assocation! I believe 'folk music' is music which hasn't been composed; akin to folk stories (eg Cinderella)- stories or songs that have been in existence and do not belong to any one person eg 'She Moves Through the Fair', 'Scarborough Fair' etc. When it comes to folk music, I think in the 60's things got a little confused with singer songwriters being regarded as folk singers possibly as they were playing 'folk standards' (eg 'She Moves Through the Fair' etc) but they would play/perform their own material they had written. Personally, it's something I think is still a bit of a grey area of singer songwriters being regarded as folk singers not because they play 'folk songs' but they use acoustic instruments to play songs they wrote themselves. In musical terms, I think flamenco in many ways is very much a folk music form due to the prevalence of standards of pieces such as Soleares, Bulerias etc. Music is a personal thing and these are my perceptions and reflections which are personal to me, I don't believe they are of much consequence or matter as ultimately I don't consider labels and generalisations towards music to be relevant; if something is 'folk music' or not I myself am not bothered...
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Nov 20, 2013 22:45:15 GMT
Something like, specific tunes and songs which have been played by ordinary people for long enough to be regarded as traditional.
It's good, almost by definition, otherwise it would not have withstood the test of time - "survival of the fittest" etc. Though you may not like particular interpretations or attempts to fuse with other genres - I struggle to listen to most "folk-rock" for example. The tunes are invariably good.
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Post by scorpiodog on Nov 21, 2013 11:40:13 GMT
Great thread, this. I don't think it's a folk music forum either (and, Leo, thanks for the name check. Men In Black play discarded pop music of the sixties and seventies, predominantly - "covers from decades ago" as you so aptly wrote). But what the analysis of ages poll showed quite strongly was that most members of this forum were young when folk clubs were in their heyday and the 60's folk revival was in full swing. Perhaps that's influenced us and made it look like we concentrate on folk music. But we're just old! But there are many of us who would not be welcome to play in some folk clubs (the dyed-in-the-wool traditional type) although my recent experience of folk clubs is that they welcome pretty much anything as long as it's fully acoustic. I played "Born To Be Wild" in my local one a little while ago. I don't think under any definition that could be called a folk song, but everybody knew the words and sang along. So I guess I'm saying that, not only is this forum ill defined as a folk music forum, but lots of folk clubs (not all) are ill defined as folk clubs. "That's just the name of the shop, Sir" As for what constitutes "Folk Music", I prefer your definition iii). So, Missclarktree, you don't say how you define folk music? It'd be great to know because I'd then have some insight into why you think this is a folk music forum. I'd also love to hear what you play. Any chance of putting something into the Plucky Duck?
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Adrian
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Post by Adrian on Nov 21, 2013 12:56:33 GMT
@ missclarktree
Please forgive me; I don't mean to 'hijack' your discussion thread, however can anyone explain to me what is the difference between 'Folk' music and 'Country & Western' music.
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Post by jonnymosco on Nov 21, 2013 17:03:02 GMT
I'd say Country and Western is folk music, just played by different folk. Flamenco also. And even Blues. Music of the masses passed down by an 'aural' tradition about ordinary, everyday things, plus the odd social comment thrown in for good measure.
I'd like to amend my earlier harsh comment about English folk music... I can bear it when there is no singing involved.
Jonny
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 21, 2013 18:00:06 GMT
Thanks everyone for sharing your ideas. Plenty of food for thought there.
I suppose what made me think this must be a folk music forum was when I noticed that the Plucky Duck is described as a 'virtual folk club' and many of the contributions in it are what I would have thought of as traditional folk songs, eg "She moved through the fair". I noticed there's quite a lot of interest in DADGAD tuning, which I haven't come across before. When I looked it up, it seemed to be associated with Celtic and Irish songs which, again, seemed traditional.
I was a bit worried that the forum might not be the right place to talk about the kind of music that I've recently got into (more on that in a minute) and that it might not be classed as 'folk'. From your replies I would guess that my fears were unfounded. People have different opinions on what counts as 'folk', and no-one has said that the forum is only about folk, if indeed they accept the concept of genres at all.
In the mid-seventies I used to go to a weekly 'folk' night at a local pub, though I don't remember much about it. I kept up with pop music throughout the seventies and eighties, then lost interest when it all started to sound very bland. I was listening to classical music and a bit of 'world' music in the middle of the night, but generally felt at a low ebb, musically.
Then I discovered youtube, which has changed my life! Flatt and Scruggs, Doc Watson, Chet Atkins, Seasick Steve, Tommy Emmanuel, Michael Chapdelaine and . . . Sungha Jung et al. Also flamenco. At least some of that might be classed as 'folk' in the broader sense, and it's what inspired me to get a steel string guitar.
I would agree with most of you that it's a grey area. I find labels useful in helping one to find a particular style. If you order a bluegrass book on Amazon you know roughly what to expect. But, as a Buddhist might say, they point to reality rather than defining or limiting it.
At the moment I don't think I can get through a single piece of music without making several mistakes so, bearing in mind that what we put on t' internet is there for ever, I wouldn't have the confidence to upload anything yet. Maybe, when I've made a bit of progress.
Thanks once again for your interesting replies, which all bear further consideration . . .
Alison
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Post by jonnymosco on Nov 21, 2013 18:09:25 GMT
Alison
Good thread and important to discuss what it's all about.
As for mistakes, I'm sure they are just reminders that the music is being made 'live' by musicians and not edited in a studio; but, if you did want to upload your stuff to YouTube, you could edit out the phrases with mistakes if they bother you. What are you working on at the moment?
Jonny
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 21, 2013 18:16:22 GMT
Alison Good thread and important to discuss what it's all about. As for mistakes, I'm sure they are just reminders that the music is being made 'live' by musicians and not edited in a studio; but, if you did want to upload your stuff to YouTube, you could edit out the phrases with mistakes if they bother you. What are you working on at the moment? Jonny Promise not to laugh - Angie on the steel string. Mysterious Barricades on the nylon - with the simplest possible fingerings and maximum use of open strings.
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