scotch
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 482
|
Post by scotch on Dec 4, 2013 21:12:52 GMT
Hello folks,
For past year been taking it easy and been just playing songs, watching tabs and odd time do try to progress in some form but usually leaves me in frustration. But I've been trying to increase my knowledge. How Scales are formed for each form for like Augumented, Diminshed, Minor, Major etc. Then learn how every chord is form and do it by myself than simply looking online for the chord you want.
I'm wondering how much of this knowledge do you need to do everything from Arrangements, Composing, Altered tunings etc.
Because for me i can't seem to see the link for these.
|
|
|
Post by gekko on Dec 4, 2013 22:12:39 GMT
Hi scotch - great question. I can only speak from personal experience, and I've recently gone back to basics in order to kickstart my love for the guitar again. When I stopped playing two years ago, I was learning a lot of theory and feeling a little overwhelmed to be honest. I was in the process of working my way through a book that taught improvisation. Interestingly, I made most progress when I stopped thinking about the theory and just let myself go with the flow. I thought that learning all the theory would help unleash my creativity, but instead I felt inhibited by it. I felt that whilst I was increasing my theoretical knowledge and becoming technically more proficient, it was at the expense of experimentation. Maybe you just have to keep going until you get beyond the mechanics and I gave up before I got there. Also, I think I was taking on too much (I was also working on my sight reading for classical as well as learning slide and alternate tunings). Perhaps the lesson is to stick to learning one thing at a time and know why it is you are doing it. You can arrange, compose and play in alternate tunings without learning theory, so you probably need to have a good sense of what the theory is likely to add to your playing.
Your question really interests me because I never quite got to the heart of the link between theory and arranging/composing/improvisation, but I still feel there is a link. For now, I've returned to playing songs from tab and will build again from there, hopefully learning from some of the mistakes I made first time around and not taking on too much at one time. I'd love to know how you get on. There are plenty of books and websites that will teach you the theory, but few that truly articulate the link between the knowledge and the resulting creative freedom.
|
|
alig
C.O.G.
Posts: 1,059
|
Post by alig on Dec 4, 2013 22:22:18 GMT
My tuppence hapenny...
Like most things - generally - the more you know the better.
For me, playing clarinet at school gave me a grounding in music 'theory', and I find it very useful for the guitar. I can't sight-read music to save my life (that said, I've enrolled in a music course up here next year so maybe that'll bring it all back to me... perhaps not.) and I'm happy with TAB. Such knowledge that I have was useful because I could apply it to chord theory - if you know the Major scale you're off and running. Chords are just formulas, made up of notes of a particular scale - 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc, including #/b.
Google chord theory and see what you come up with...
All the best,
Alasdair.
|
|
scotch
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 482
|
Post by scotch on Dec 5, 2013 9:14:44 GMT
Chord theory is goos. Knly reason ive learnt it because of training my ear and know what chords in that kry. But it always stumbles me why a second or sixth can be a major when they are supposed to be minors
|
|
|
Post by fatfingerjohn on Dec 5, 2013 9:28:28 GMT
I started trying to play guitar a long time ago before youtube, websites etc and, as I was only trying to do some accompaniment, everything I did was from a chord 'shapes' little book (I've still got it!). Learn a shape, then learn another etc. I had no idea whatsoever of which note any string/fret represented and no knowledge at all about 1st, 4ths, 5ths in a progression; why a minor was a minor; or even what a 7th was (other than you put one of your fingers somewhere different). Everything else was by ear and working out the order of chords to fit a song tune, usually by trial and error.
And, 40 or so years on, whilst I've picked up a lot more generally since returning to guitar after a long break, I still couldn't tell you the names of most of the notes on the fretboard! And I've NEVER played a scale. Has that been a problem? I have managed fine without. But I am pretty sure that, if I'd done some more theory and practiced individual note work a lot earlier I would be a much better player now; I still do very little solo work, its all chord based.
So I suppose my answer is that you should try to learn the theory and do some theory based practice. But, the absolute rule must be to enjoy what you're doing and don't let anything stop you enjoying it. I remember having some piano lessons when I was in my early teens and hating it because I seemed to just be doing scales and arpeggios all the time. Put me off music for ages.
FFJ
|
|
scotch
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 482
|
Post by scotch on Dec 5, 2013 9:57:43 GMT
Theory hasnt put me off too much. Just understanding progression and learning scales are fun well when I say fun I mean in altered tunings just the different fingering.
One thing that disheartens me alot is ear training. Trying to learn chords by ear using chord theory etc.
Its something kll stick with so I want to become as well trained as I can in my areas of interest in guitar playing.
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 33,969
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Dec 5, 2013 11:23:45 GMT
Chord theory is goos. Knly reason ive learnt it because of training my ear and know what chords in that kry. But it always stumbles me why a second or sixth can be a major when they are supposed to be minors It sounds like you are confusing two different things here. i) A chord of C6 - which is basically a decorated chord of C major but with a 6th interval note (A) added to it. ii) A chord of VIm - the sixth chord in the sequence (I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VIim, VIIdim) obtained by harmonising the scale of (in this example) C major - C, Dm ,Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C (the confusion is compounded by the fact that these chords are indeed fairly similar in much of their note content, but let that pass!) Is that helpful Chris? Some other random (and probably v personal) thoughts that may or may not be helpful - Funny how instruction manuals telling you how to use gadgets are only really understandable once you've worked out how to use the gadget anyway. I reckon music theory is a bit like that. I learned by listening, copying and attempting to play other stuff I made up. As time went by I "noticed" things like a G, C, D chord sequence having the same relationship between each chord as a C, F and G sequence, and that by counting the numbers of frets between the root notes I could establish a "formula" for putting those chords (and any others) into a different key/ transoosing with/wothout capo/construncting my own chord fingerings etc. And so on until I had my own idiosynchratic but workable practical knowledge of how to make this guitar playing thing happen for me. What we in Western Europe understand as Music Theory is not universal and is not set in tablets of stone - it arises from the music, not the other way round. Western European ideas of what is "correct" differ markedly from what pertains to most other musical cultures worldwide, and even to some subsets within W.European music. Musical "rules" are for guidance, and can often be broken. Learning when to break them effectively is not something that can be subjected to more rules, but is better learned by trial and error. Sometimes not knowing them in the first place allows a more creative approach. None of this is intended to be critical of music theory, nor those whose journey has been mapped out by it. Far from it. We are all different, and learn in different ways. Thankfully! Apols if this is drivel! Keith
|
|
|
Post by dawkins on Dec 17, 2013 19:17:33 GMT
I have been in both camps: the one which plays mainly by ear and basic knowledge of chords and now one which involves reading music and gaining a deeper understanding.
Eighteen months ago I decided to have guitar lessons and found a guy called Simon Lilley in Bolton (an outstanding guitar player in all genres). I went with the intention of learning to fingerpick acoustic ballads but soon he introduced me to classical guitar and book one in the Tune a Day series. All I can say is that it is the best think I have ever done and now have regrets that I hadn't looked at the guitar in this way before.
I'm currently playing classical studies at about Grade 4 (and occassionally 5) but my understanding of music has progressed really well. I don't sight read fluently (could take a lifetime) but what I enjoy is being able to pick up a piece of notated music and quickly get a feel for it and then set about learning it more deeply if needs be.
Another bonus is the fact that you get to learn the neck much better (although the top end is still hard for me) and as Keith has alluded to you get to understand what chords such as C6 are. One of my happy moments was when I really understood the difference between a Maj 7 and a Dominant 7 and plenty of other stuff like that.
So I am converted to the idea that the more you know the better. I don't really envisage pushing myself to the point where I get fed up constanly studying but as long as I steadily learn more I will be happy.
And the spin off for me is that because I like to play fingerpicked ballads (such as Kathy's Song) I don't find them too demanding when singing.
|
|
andrewjw
C.O.G.
Posts: 4,737
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":""}
|
Post by andrewjw on Dec 17, 2013 20:31:28 GMT
And the spin off for me is that because I like to play fingerpicked ballads (such as Kathy's Song) I don't find them too demanding when singing. Kathy's Song is probably the PS song that we enjoy playing the most... It would be great to hear your version...maybe at the Plucky Duck...? Could turn into a nice thread... I don't think we've had a PS [Paul Simon] project here [or before ] have we..? Maybe something for after the festivities..
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 24,545
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Dec 17, 2013 20:41:50 GMT
I don't think we've had a PS [Paul Simon] project here [or before ] have we..? No, we haven't ... although I did a parody called "The Capo", I think it was ... a PS (or and S&G) project could be fun
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 33,969
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Dec 17, 2013 21:52:53 GMT
+ another 1 for Kathy's Song -has been a favourite since the Paul Simon Songbook LP came out in 196? I learned all the songs on that LP at the time, except for A Simple Desultory Philippic.
Nigh on 50 years later, only Kathy's Song remains as a song I sing reasonably often, though some of the others I do still enjoy singing now and then.
I'd be up for a PS/S&G Project....
Keith
|
|
|
Post by scorpiodog on Dec 18, 2013 12:24:35 GMT
Kathy's Song is probably the PS song that we enjoy playing the most... It would be great to hear your version...maybe at the Plucky Duck...? +1 Love Kathy's Song I don't think we've had a PS [Paul Simon] project here [or before ] have we..? Maybe something for after the festivities.. Great thought, Andrew!
|
|
|
Post by fatfingerjohn on Dec 18, 2013 13:54:59 GMT
Kathy's Song is probably the PS song that we enjoy playing the most... It would be great to hear your version...maybe at the Plucky Duck...? +1 Love Kathy's Song I don't think we've had a PS [Paul Simon] project here [or before ] have we..? Maybe something for after the festivities.. Great thought, Andrew! I'm not sure what a 'project' involves but anything to do with S&G is thumbs up for me. I keep going back to Paul Simon's stuff all the time and seems even more so lately. Sorry about the
|
|
ocarolan
Global Moderator
CURMUDGEONLY OLD GIT (leader - to join, just ask!)
Posts: 33,969
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"c0cfe1"}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 182a3f
Mini-Profile Text Color: 733a1c
|
Post by ocarolan on Dec 18, 2013 14:24:25 GMT
.....I'm not sure what a 'project' involves............... We've had several Forum Projects so far John. Most were lost when the old Forum went tits up, but we've made a tentative start here too - www.acousticsoundboard.co.uk/board/17/forum-projectsThe idea is that we agree on a particular song and post our own recording of it; or we pick a performer and post recordings of our versions of any of their songs. Yes, there are copyright issues here, and Youtube videos often flag these up, which could ultimately be a problem for the uploader, but Boxnet for sound recordings is a fairly private way of doing these things on such a small scale. Keith
|
|
scotch
Cheerfully Optimistic
Posts: 482
|
Post by scotch on Dec 18, 2013 14:38:24 GMT
Seems like alot of fun. Ill could give a go next one.
|
|