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Post by kevmc1180 on Apr 25, 2014 22:18:57 GMT
Hi I only recently realised that when guitars are constructed that two separated pieces of timbers (woods) are joined together to form the top soundboard and back. Presumably as younger tress are more readily available hence smaller in size.! My latest guitar a Faith Mercury High gloss, which is a totally awesome guitar the best I have ever had, and has made me realise what all the fuss with ALL SOLID guitars is about..... Never going back to laminate back and sides again. now...
Anyway on this guitar I have noticed more than any other that the top in particular is made from two sections of wood, as you can see a slight change in colour tone between the two, depending on which way you tilt the guitar into the light the difference between light and dark switches from one side to the other, but as I said you can see it. On my solid top sigma you cannot see it only that the grain slopes diagonally into together where the grain on the faith is dead straight.
Also the difference between the two guitars with the solid tops is the sigma is Sitka spruce and the faith is Engelmann spruce. So wonder has this any part to play.
I contacted Faith and they said this can happen and its fairly common and said the few they had in the office were the same.
Anyone have opinions or have a guitar that is a bit like this?
Im not overally worried as the guitar plays and sounds amazing , im just curious to know is it common?
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Apr 25, 2014 22:24:16 GMT
Glad you're enjoying your Mercury, Kev The colour difference is referred to as run out, and Bob Taylor explains it here
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Post by vikingblues on Apr 26, 2014 6:54:34 GMT
" Run out – Is usually revealed by improper milling of the wood. Each tree has some degree of runout because of the twist that occurs naturally in a tree. Every log will have varying amounts of grain run out. Only the straightest logs are selected for musical grade wood. As the tree grows it constantly twists as it tries to follow the sun throughout the day. A tree is made up of billions of tube like cells that run from the roots of the tree to the leaves. Lets compare a rectangular board to a rectangular box of plastic drinking straws. Looking at the open ends of a box of straws would be comparable to the end grain view of a top. These cells run the entire length of the top. Now if you looked at the top's surface in its longitudinal length you don’t see any [tube] ends or openings on the surface because each cell is laying parallel to the top's surface. Each of these tubes are oriented in the direction of the grain. As the straws are lying parallel to one another along the entire length of the box so are the cells in a top. This is how a top with no run would look like.
If a top has run out then those cells or tubes would not be parallel to the top's surface but would be lying at a some diagonal angle. You would then begin to see the ends of the tubes show up on these surfaces.
Have you ever seen a guitar top that appeared to have one side that was slightly darker or lighter in color than the opposite side of the center joint? This is a perfect example of a top with run-out. The cell or tube ends that are not laying parallel to the surface have their cell ends exposed on the top surface. When these ends of the cells are exposed to the light they will refract the light at different angles and make the top halves appear to be different colors.
A very small amount of runout can be acceptable but a considerable amount of run out is not a desirable characteristic for a top. Run out is visually distracting. More importantly it causes structural weakness in the top rendering it considerable less stiff compared to a top with very little detectable run out. The highest grade tops are hand split so the face of the top always follows any run out that may exist in the billet. Much of the soundboard wood today is not hand split, because it is a very labor intensive process which in turn drives the cost too high. Instead tops are rapidly sawn from planks at the mill. Improper sawing will usually reveal varying degrees of runout in the top. " Above is from : McKnight Guitars - SoundboardsIn moderation seems an OK thing and, if it prevents a massive hike in guitar cost in such a competitive market, is understandable. Congratulations on getting a guitar that "plays and sounds amazing". THAT is worth having. Mark
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Post by sigmadel on Apr 26, 2014 7:56:05 GMT
Sometimes you can't really notice the difference in colour until you take a pic and it seems to show it more or in certain light . Unless you look at that Howard Klepper dovetail madness guitar as its a bit too obvious . The quality of the timbre on my Sigma was an attraction for me as its tight running straight and true at the centre whilst opening up gently at the wider part of the table . Up until I got the Freshman I'd never really have considered a Cedar top and didn't actually really realise it was Cedar until I checked Freshmans website . I do really love the way she's opening up to me though I love the smooth satin sheen on the body . I can't notice the join in the Cedar top at all unless its more uncommon to notice in cedar . When two colour of timbre are perfectly matched for a join together so grain pattern and colour are practically identical is called book matching and in my days when I was a carpenter is spend ages in the wood yard when buying hardwood skirting board or door architraves (facings) to match for colour if I knew they were to be varnished or naturally oiled less so if it was to be painted . Some manufacturers use 3 piece backs and some of them look stunning , using a different tonewood for the central area although what effect this has on sound I'm not sure but probably Dave or another luthier within the forum would know more about that . I'm with you though Kev I'm glad I got an all solid instrument but still love my other guitars with lam back and sides too .
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Apr 26, 2014 9:16:54 GMT
If you really want to understand runout this thread on the ANZLF might help. You'd have to find a very big old tree to get a 16" wide top of good quality from and there aren't too many of those - as Gary Nava famously said here "they don't grow on trees you know", well not anymore and sadly most have been pulped to make toilet paper Book-matched two piece tops will give better wood use and quality and look better visually - you can get over the two tone look of runout by not joining using the bookmatch but reversing one of the pieces - not visually perfect but pretty acceptable depending on the piece of wood. It is very hard indeed to get tops nowadays with no runout at all - "mastergrade" is an arbitrary and very overused marketing word. The degree of structural weakness in a top with runout really depends on each piece of wood and in many cases the issue is going to more cosmetic than sonic and structural. Wood is wood and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When is a guitar with back and sides made of two or three sheets of glued veneer a "laminate construction" or a "double sides/back construction" - answers on a postcard please As for the effects on sound of a three piece back with different woods it depends if you are looking for the fruity depths or the chocolatey edge with a hint of raspberry.
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Post by Martin on Apr 26, 2014 9:26:32 GMT
As for the effects on sound of a three piece back with different woods it depends if you are looking for the fruity depths or the chocolatey edge with a hint of raspberry.
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Post by ocarolan on Apr 26, 2014 10:12:23 GMT
................ As for the effects on sound of a three piece back with different woods it depends if you are looking for the fruity depths or the chocolatey edge with a hint of raspberry. What! No toasted wheat underpinnings? Keith
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Post by kevmc1180 on Apr 26, 2014 11:49:45 GMT
If you really want to understand runout this thread on the ANZLF might help. You'd have to find a very big old tree to get a 16" wide top of good quality from and there aren't too many of those - as Gary Nava famously said here "they don't grow on trees you know", well not anymore and sadly most have been pulped to make toilet paper Book-matched two piece tops will give better wood use and quality and look better visually - you can get over the two tone look of runout by not joining using the bookmatch but reversing one of the pieces - not visually perfect but pretty acceptable depending on the piece of wood. It is very hard indeed to get tops nowadays with no runout at all - "mastergrade" is an arbitrary and very overused marketing word. The degree of structural weakness in a top with runout really depends on each piece of wood and in many cases the issue is going to more cosmetic than sonic and structural. Wood is wood and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When is a guitar with back and sides made of two or three sheets of glued veneer a "laminate construction" or a "double sides/back construction" - answers on a postcard please As for the effects on sound of a three piece back with different woods it depends if you are looking for the fruity depths or the chocolatey edge with a hint of raspberry. Dave is it more common with Engelmann Spruce than Sitka Spruce. I have see quite a few Faith guitars with what you call run out (darker one side) and they are all made with Engelmann Spruce. I also know someone with a Taylor 814 which is a very expensive guitar in the 2-3 grand range which has a bit of run out. According to my old friend Google it seems fairly common in high end as well as mid range guitars...
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Post by sigmadel on Apr 26, 2014 13:14:01 GMT
Kev some guitars like your sigma has a vintage toner (colour) added to the lacquer just like some varnish is crystal clear whereas some have a slight tint to them . This as well as different colour from different trees although the same species maybe forested from different areas or from a different part of the same forest but maybe less dense so more light can enter etc...Taylor guitars do sometimes add the slight colour to the varnish or lacquer of their tops too . As far as Engleman spruce is concerned but I may be wrong its a paler spruce than sitka so gives a different shade again as does Adirondack which many consider the best spruce for guitar tops . Also the way timber is cut affects its final appearance when finished . Its just like granite its mainly natural occurance but in wood stains can be added . Check out some of the spruces that have lines running through them as if scratched hence the term bearclaw . Maple is another wood that varies in tone and pattern quilted , flamed etc...although again some of that may be due to the machining of the wood too . Dave the 3 piece backs I'm referring too are the ones where its like say rosewood either side of a strip of maple or ebony something like that . I didn't mean 3 layers on top of each other .
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Apr 26, 2014 13:37:12 GMT
Dave the 3 piece backs I'm referring too are the ones where its like say rosewood either side of a strip of maple or ebony something like that . I didn't mean 3 layers on top of each other . Del - In response to your query I did mean 3 piece backs like you describe - sorry to be so flippant. The back and side woods add very subtle "flavourings" and I think you would find it hard to distinguish the sound of the same model made by the same maker with a rosewood/maple/rosewood back compared to an all rosewood one. Dave is it more common with Engelmann Spruce than Sitka Spruce.] Kev - runout occurs in all types of spruce, the degree depends on the tree and how it is cut. I have see quite a few Faith guitars with what you call run out (darker one side) and they are all made with Engelmann Spruce. I also know someone with a Taylor 814 which is a very expensive guitar in the 2-3 grand range which has a bit of run out. According to my old friend Google it seems fairly common in high end as well as mid range guitars... Indeed - tops with zero runout are in the minority.
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Post by leoroberts on Apr 26, 2014 13:48:46 GMT
I can't say I'm bothered by a bit of runout ... and haven't looked at my instruments closely enough to see if there is any (although I'm lucky enough to have been able to get guitars built by people that know what they're doing and wouldn't put out an instrument about which they weren't 100% confident)
I wonder, though, if this is a reason for the popularity of sunburst guitars? Would a SB cover up excessive runout?
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Post by kevmc1180 on Apr 26, 2014 14:49:01 GMT
Del I actually didn't think of that, its true the sigma has a vintage kinda tone in the gloss... Yeah Engelmann is more pale than Sitka.
As your talking about three piece backs my Faith has a 3 piece back but not segmented into thirds,. But the two main sections are Rosewood and a narrow section of Mahogany, I don't think it makes a blind bit difference in tone but looks pretty cool.
Id say there are plenty of guitars out there with run off that we don't notice as the wood is stained , with my faith the gloss is completely clear..
Again thanks for all the information...
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Post by dadog on Apr 29, 2014 17:57:16 GMT
I made a guitar or two and always tried to take two consecutive boards off a bulk plank or log and then, as has been said above, book match them by aligning (and joining), the two outside edges. Hopefully the top looks better and is uniformly strong across its width and length.
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Post by scripsit on Apr 30, 2014 2:06:55 GMT
Some people (including me) really like the look of timbers that have the property when cut in certain ways to possess 'Chatoyancy', which is a sort of 3D shimmering effect. Wikipedia has a good explanation here. The Australian timbers Tasmanian Blackwood and Queensland Maple are particularly beautiful in this respect, and Blackwood, at least, makes a fine tonewood for backs and sides. I've followed the spruce 'runout' debate on several forums over the years, and agree with Dave that it seems to be only an issue if the structural integrity of the top is affected. I've got Sitka on both of my good guitars and a cheap Martin dread. I happen to like the 'blinking on and off' effect that you get if you hold a guitar face join up to the light and tip it a few degrees backwards and forwards. Not that I would ever stand there and do such a foolish thing, of course. Kym
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Post by alig on Apr 30, 2014 2:47:56 GMT
Some people (including me) really like the look of timbers that have the property when cut in certain ways to possess 'Chatoyancy', which is a sort of 3D shimmering effect. Wikipedia has a good explanation here. The Australian timbers Tasmanian Blackwood and Queensland Maple are particularly beautiful in this respect, and Blackwood, at least, makes a fine tonewood for backs and sides. I've followed the spruce 'runout' debate on several forums over the years, and agree with Dave that it seems to be only an issue if the structural integrity of the top is affected. I've got Sitka on both of my good guitars and a cheap Martin dread. I happen to like the 'blinking on and off' effect that you get if you hold a guitar face join up to the light and tip it a few degrees backwards and forwards. Not that I would ever stand there and do such a foolish thing, of course. Kym Yup. Had an all-Koa Taylor which was simply beautiful. Looked like Tiger's Eye. Almost worth keeping for looks alone. Almost. I absolutely love highly figured wood. Alasdair.
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