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Post by vikingblues on May 25, 2014 10:57:26 GMT
I'd never really considered the effect of the capo on the overall sound of the guitar until yesterday - just thought of it as something to alter the pitch. I only have a limited experience of acoustics so far, and no experience of the larger bodied ones, so I would be interested in what other more experienced and knowledgeable members on the forum have found with their guitars and capos. I was trying to play Mark Thomsons "Travellers Tale" arrangement of Roslin Bridge on my Tanglewood TW73. Then, after a while, I noticed when I read his notes on the piece that he would capo at the 5th fret. I tried this and was startled at the massive change in sound, and in particular the loss of a lot of the ambience / life / resonance that the TW73 produces that I find makes it a good fit for Celtic music. My first thought was that the capo was to blame, but that didn't necessarily make sense - it's not worn and has got a good solid grip that is right for intonation and there is no buzzing or dull thuds with "open" strings. The 5th fret effectively becomes the nut and I didn't think the metal of the fret should dull the sound particularly compared to bone. I tried the capo at the 3rd and 2nd frets too but neither of those sounded as good as the guitar with no capo. I thought of trying to tune down a tone and capo the 2nd fret to compare with the same notes as used without a capo. But that would reduce the tension of the strings and would have an impact on the sound. So I wouldn't know what the effect of just the capo was. I did a bit of thinking around this. The TW73 is a parlour guitar, and has a short (628mm / 24.75") scale. So it doesn't have as much resonance as a larger guitar and the vibration of the string will be smaller as it's a shorter scale. So my thought was it was maybe the "type" of guitar that was causing this effect. I guess there is also the typically less bass response on a Parlour - the TW73 does sound better for bass and resonance at the bottom end when tuned slightly down to open G than standard EADGBE. So up at the 5th fret there will be a lot less going on at the lower end. I got the Tanglewood TW45 out this morning - my only other standard acoustic. It's a larger guitar than the TW73 but it's not big - sort of OM / Folk type of size. The same music on that sounded better for tone with the capo at the 5th fret than with no capo. It took some of the "jangle" away, and it possibly makes it sound a bit more like my Parlour. So I think I'll have to choose whether to play the piece on the TW73 with no capo and in a different key, or with a capo on the TW45. I think the guitar used by Mark Thomson in the "Travellers Tale" project was a grand Auditorium size which would be a lot closer to my TW45 dimensions than the TW73. I'm assuming that each individual guitar will be different for how it reacts to a capo at different frets. All those vibrations and harmonics affecting different parts of the body and neck at different places. Presumably there is often a best fret option for sound on using a capo on a particular guitar. Is it the case that the bigger guitars tend to take a capo better tone-wise? Does a higher quality guitar cope better, or does it show up the differences in tone even more? Any thoughts? HAH!! Just before clicking the "Create Thread" button I had an idea - which I should have thought of sooner. I have just tried my spider capo with all the legs down at the 5th fret on the TW73. Much better sound than with the Kyser Quick Change style capo. A little test shows the lower notes are sustaining longer with the Spider. BUT the TW45 DID sound better with the Kyser on it. Now I'm even more confused. Mark
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on May 25, 2014 12:19:13 GMT
As part of learning flamenco I've just started using a capo, and it changes the tone quite a lot on nylon strings, making it ring out more. I think that's one of the reasons it is used in flamenco, to make the treble notes audible above all the tapping and clapping.
I have used one on the Seagull Martime Folk, which is a small bodied steel string, and it does noticeably change the tone on that as well. Perhaps it's even more noticeable on a larger guitar just because they tend to be louder.
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on May 25, 2014 19:31:15 GMT
That's a very interesting post, Mark. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.
I'm a frequent user of capos, on rather big guitars like my Akquarius, but also on smaller ones like my DeFaoite Feileacan build. I use G7th, Shubb and Kyser.
Up to now I have not paid too much attention on how the capo alters sound, but will do so now. Maybe I'll be able to contribute something sensible to this interesting thread.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 9:01:06 GMT
I have often noticed the effect capos have on sound, so its interesting to see that other people find the same. For instance, some capos seem to dull the sound more than others. Also, you observation about moving the capo up the neck kind of makes sense. You are in effect shortening the scale length, with a corresponding change in sustain. This is why a mandolin fort instance has much less sustain than say a mandola or octave mandolin, with their longer scale length. Robbie (p.s thanks for your address re the partial capo thread )
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Post by scripsit on May 26, 2014 10:34:24 GMT
I'd agree that most guitar/capo combinations have qualities peculiar to the physical characteristics of both, although I think the individual guitar is more important than the brand of capo. I don't like the 'choked' sound that you get with a capo on a particularly resonant guitar, although a second fret capo can help with focus in a busy fingerstyle piece where there are lots of overlapping notes.
In addition, any intonation problem becomes much more pronounced as you capo further and further up the neck, especially if your guitar is calibrated for normal tuning and you have dropped down to DADGAD or a C tuning. I find I play most pieces designated to have a fret 5 capo down at fret 3 instead. I think the best plan is to investigate 'terce' guitars or similar if you want the shimmering mandolin sound.
Kym
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on May 26, 2014 12:08:15 GMT
Mark,
Interesting topic. Capoing a guitar at different positions is a test that I do to see how it responds. An interesting instrument for me maintains its resonance, complexity and sustain as you capo up the neck and starts to show a more "chimey" sound for want of a better word. More often than not instruments seems to lose resonance and complexity when capoed. I don't think it is to do with scale length or the instrument's size, in my view it's more to do with the "voicing" of the instrument for different frequency responses and the characteristics of the neck's construction and resonant frequencies. My belief is that the upper bout of the guitar is important in colouring the complex harmonics in higher frequency notes which come into play more as you capo up the neck. Adding carbon fibre bars to the neck's construction helps with the neck's resonant frequencies in eliminating dead spots and giving a balance in notes played up and across the fingerboard.
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Post by sigmadel on May 26, 2014 17:01:42 GMT
When I went to get my last instrument (the Freshman) I deliberately took a capo as well as different picks to try and quage the different sounds and responce I'd get from individual guitars . I play quite a lot with a capo on A to suit my voice although I'd probably be better with a skip ;-) . And B because of the different sound I get especially higher up the fretboard . Not really dull just really really nice .
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Post by vikingblues on May 26, 2014 18:32:47 GMT
It's been interesting to read the responses on this thread and I appreciate your input everyone - very useful - thank you. The electric guitars I used to play didn't really throw up any sound issues with capos but then they are not the same complexity of instruments for how sound is produced. Wish I'd started this acoustic mullarkey years ago and I could have sorted out all these issues way back. I had been a bit concerned about what was happening with the TW73 / Kyser capo combo. The fact that the Spider capo sounds much better than the Kyser has helped ease my mind, and I'm hopeful that one of the capos in the road trip collection might give me an idea for a better option than the particular Kyser that I use. Thanks Robbie! The Spider isn't really that convenient / easy to use as a full capo, and I'm essentially quite lazy! I'd certainly rather use my TW73 than the TW45 - I enjoy it's more subtle and wider range of sounds, as well as it's being more comfortable. The extra sweetness in the upper register notes moving up the neck maybe go hand in hand with why there's a greater difference in the capo'd 5th fret sound than there is with the TW45. There is also much more of a difference apparent in the TW73 when I change tuning - and it really does "sing" beautifully in Open G. Getting more ringing to the sound with a capo on your nylon strung guitar for flamenco is a good bonus Alison - that should really help to get that typical flamenco sound. It does seem that others have found that there's a degree of random variation which I'm glad to see - nice to know it's not just me. There's so many variable factors it's no wonder there's an apparent random element. The fact that my guitar A sounds better with the Kyser at fret 5 than without but guitar B is worse, combined with the Spider sounding better than the Kyser on guitar B but the two capos sounding very similar on guitar A shows how wide this random effect can be I think. I'm not surprised to hear you say that you test out this sort of response Dave - it goes hand in hand with the picture I've built up of how much hard work and care you put into making guitars. It's one of the things that won't happen with an mass produced instrument like mine! Maybe if I can keep my savings intact and building up for long enough I might be able to eventually find out what a quality guitar can bring to the party. That's a large IF with my love of spending. But whatever I do I'll need to remember to take a few capos along with me next time I buy / try a guitar - I only took a partial last time for a bit of trying out with a bit of alternate tuning. Hadn't realised just how much the standard capo is used in the styles of acoustic guitar music I've developed an interest in. Mark
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marty
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Post by marty on May 26, 2014 22:34:16 GMT
I used the change of sound that a capo makes to improve the sound of my old Washburn. It tends to sound rather unbalanced played normally and can be quite unruly with altered tunings and open string playing. But if I played with a capo, it would make the sound drier, less resonant and in this particular guitar's case, more balanced.
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Post by walkingdecay on May 27, 2014 12:23:44 GMT
I agree with Robbie about different kinds of capos having an effect on the sound. I won't use the elasticated types because their holes or slots don't allow for the fine adjustment that the screws on the metal types do. I even think the elasticated ones have a slight muting effect, and when flatpicking can kill the ring of open strings.
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Post by michaelwatts on May 27, 2014 13:01:43 GMT
I've certainly found that different capos have different effects on the tone of my guitar. There is certainly a compromise to be made between a capo that grips the neck tightly and sometimes sharpens the notes and one that won't sharpen the notes but sounds kind of spongey and non-descript...
I've been an endorsing artist for G7th capos for a couple of years now and really like their designs. The new performance capo model (just launched) is very nice indeed. That said the massive neck on my Kostal MD means that no G7th has been able to hold on for "Capo D'astro" and I have to use a pair of Kysers...
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Post by curmudgeon on Jun 4, 2014 20:11:25 GMT
I have read of concerns like this before - but I believe it is not the effect of the capo but the imitation of resonance at certain pitches of the instrument.Many guitars respond better to certain keys than others - and this may explain why a particular guitar played "open" might sound better(or worse) than played with a capo fitted - and it might also explain the reverse.
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Post by vikingblues on Jun 4, 2014 22:20:25 GMT
I used the change of sound that a capo makes to improve the sound of my old Washburn. It tends to sound rather unbalanced played normally and can be quite unruly with altered tunings and open string playing. But if I played with a capo, it would make the sound drier, less resonant and in this particular guitar's case, more balanced. That ties in with what I found with the Kyser TW73 combination in a way, though in my case it takes a resonant and nicely balanced sound and makes it drier and less resonant which is not such a good result! I agree with Robbie about different kinds of capos having an effect on the sound. I won't use the elasticated types because their holes or slots don't allow for the fine adjustment that the screws on the metal types do. I even think the elasticated ones have a slight muting effect, and when flatpicking can kill the ring of open strings. The elasticated ones do often leave a lot to be desired. My main desire last time I tried one was to remove it as rapidly as possible. I've certainly found that different capos have different effects on the tone of my guitar. There is certainly a compromise to be made between a capo that grips the neck tightly and sometimes sharpens the notes and one that won't sharpen the notes but sounds kind of spongey and non-descript... I've been an endorsing artist for G7th capos for a couple of years now and really like their designs. The new performance capo model (just launched) is very nice indeed. Another funny thing about a capo sharpening the note. The Kyser capo on the TW73 had an effect on the 6th string tuning, but had no effect on any of the strings of the TW45. Maybe the neck shape is different or the fretboard radius maybe? That middle ground between the sharpening notes and the spongey seems full of variations too. Certainly the type of material and the way it is mechanically geared to press the string down seems to have a big influence on the sound. MORE variables! I see a G7th performance capo is one of the capos in the "capo road trip" - I'm looking forward to trying these out at some point when they get to me and see if any suit the TW73 better. Were it not for this opportunity I'd probably be inclined to a dose of GAS of the capo kind. I have read of concerns like this before - but I believe it is not the effect of the capo but the imitation of resonance at certain pitches of the instrument.Many guitars respond better to certain keys than others - and this may explain why a particular guitar played "open" might sound better(or worse) than played with a capo fitted - and it might also explain the reverse. The resonance thing does (no pun intended) strike a chord with me. It seems to make sense. I'm also of the feeling that the way the TW73 sounds "better" (more life and resonances) when played in a lowered tuning like Open G is maybe due to the body / soundboard reacting in an improved fashion due to the reduction in tension. Anyway - I'm glad it's very much the case that it's not just me finding these quirky things with sounds and capos. Mark
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Post by andyhowell on Jun 5, 2014 21:51:50 GMT
I always end up going back to Shubb!
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Post by sigmadel on Jun 7, 2014 23:06:34 GMT
I had all the G7th capos during the road trip and although they looked great and were superbly engineered I found them fiddly and one of them was quite heavy . I also own a Dunlop , a brass Shub and a Kyser . The Kyser is my go to capo all the time now as the grip sits forward of the fretboard whereas the Dunlop sits neck side and gets in the way of the fretting hand . The Shubb is easy to fit but I really need to tighten it right up as not to get muted strings . Each to their own as they say .
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