davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Jul 13, 2014 13:18:59 GMT
I'm getting close to stringing up my first 12'er. The bottom three pairs of strings will be octave pairs but I'm pondering which way to string them - high/low or low/high (which I believe is called "Rickenbacker Style"). The first way gives a better chance of sounding both octave pairs with a down pickstroke as it hits the smallest diameter string first, the second makes more sense in terms of guitar "physics" as the lower octave string needs more saddle compensation.
Which do y'all prefer and why?
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Post by earwighoney on Jul 13, 2014 13:56:10 GMT
Hello Dave, Difficult to explain but I think the normal way is the superior way. The Rickenbacker style I believe suits strummers and I believe it makes a lot of sense for the very light strings used on an electric 12 string, and on a Rickie that has a very thin narrow neck. Having it the normal way, if a 12 string is played fingerstyle then it's easier to hit the octave string first (but not always!). There are some other 'little' things which make a 12 a little more approachable. One of them is the distance between the pair of strings. On some 12's I've tried the pair of strings is too far apart and it can be a little awkward for the fretting hand and for fingerpickers. The easiest playing 12's I've come across are Breedlove (not the best sounding) which I found it easier to hit each pair of strings while fingerpicking than other 12's I've played. The Breedloves (Lowden too) have top load bridges, and I'm not sure if they are but they seem to have their strings closer together than the conventional bridge design. A lot of work for a luthier but to also improve ease for play for fingerpicking would be to have the pair of string at roughly the same height at the saddle. I came across this picture that illustrates it pretty well. Not sure I answered your question Dave, but I think I answered my question of making a 12 string a bit more manageable!
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jul 13, 2014 15:16:32 GMT
"Normal" way tends to make the octave strings sound more prominent(ie very 12 stringy) esp with a heavily thumbed fingerstyle, and makes flatpicked tunes that cross over between octave and unison pairs in either direction sound odd when the melody crosses the "change".
"Ricky" style makes the thumbed fingerstyle a bit more like a 6 er but with extra shimmer, and flatpicked runs flow less weirdly sounding when going from unison pair to octave pair or octave to unison.
Having a unison third pair makes the decision less relevant for fingerstyle tunes if the melody stays on the top three strings.
Tend to prefer "normal" most of the time for 12ers, but do like "Ricky" as well, though I haven't used it for some time on guitar. (The latter makes most sense to me on bouzouki etc)
Shubs' comments re string pair spacing and relative heights of pairs are spot on, and a great pic too!
Keith
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Jul 13, 2014 15:52:38 GMT
I don't think I've ever tried a low/high 12-er... My Paul Brett 12-er is high/low, is amazingly easy to play and, if it's good enough for guitbrett.... I also notice that only the top 2 pairs on the PB are unison..
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dadgad
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My main instrument is: Yamaha FJ661, Taylor GS Mini Mahogany
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Post by dadgad on Jul 14, 2014 21:18:28 GMT
I had my Brook Tamar tuned low/high on the 6th, 5th, and 4th strings when I had it made. The idea was to get the bass notes emphasised by the R.H thumb when I was playing finger style. I kept the 3rd G string tuned high/low as that is usually played by the fingers on an upstroke not the thumb on a downstroke. See this pic: s1275.photobucket.com/user/Dr_Kevin_Parker/media/Guitars/P1010090_zps04c0a0f0.jpg.htmlThe sound wasn't very 12-stringy more like a 6 with sympathetic strings. It also was more difficult to fret than a high/low guitar - you had to press really hard to get the octave strings to ring rather than just thudding. I have a couple of tunes recorded using it which I could put if if I knew how to do it, if anyone's interested. I've since had the guitar put back to normal high/low tuning as my shoulder problems mean that I'm highly likely to sell it quite soon. That meant replacing the nut, but I've kept the old nut so any new owner can try low/high if they want to.
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Post by scripsit on Jul 15, 2014 0:49:22 GMT
It's been a long time since I had or played a 12 string, but I would be reluctant to alter from high/low on the bass strings, especially if you're looking for the traditional and obvious sound when digging in.
I'm thinking Blind Willie McTell, here.
Kym
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Jul 15, 2014 14:48:19 GMT
Thanks for all of the input. I actually strung it up in the white "Rickenbacker Style" and it did sound more like a six string with "hints" of octaves (which I quite liked) but I'll go "traditional" apart from the unison third string.
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Post by K Tresp on Jul 15, 2014 22:38:14 GMT
For what it is worth, definitely traditional if you are going to fingerpick 12 string. Also agree that relative heights of the strings are important (only a modest very modest difference required) which seems to help when picking just one of the pair where necessary.
Interested in the choice of unison 3rd string, for me the octave third string in particular is a key part of 12 string playing but the beauty of the guitar is that there are no rules and lots of different styles can work.
Greg
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Post by earwighoney on Jul 15, 2014 23:35:47 GMT
The octave 3rd string is the one of the best and the worst things about the 12 string. I've never quite enjoyed turning a 0.008 or a 0.010 string to G/F Sharp. They love to break too.
I occasionally put on a unison 3rd string, if I have one spare when the octave breaks and I can't be bothered to restring the whole guitar. With a unison pair of 3rd strings, I have noticed they are a little tougher on the fingers. As with Greg I agree there are no rules with lots of styles working.
Getting excited in seeing Dave's 12 approaching the finish line!
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Jul 16, 2014 7:11:20 GMT
Gtreg/Shubbs, Therein lies the dilemna of me making a 12'er and not being a great fan of them as a player - particularly that 3rd string sound and progression from octave to unison as Keith describes. As this is a long scale tuned down instrument the octave 3rd string would be a 12 gauge and so the breakage issue doesn't come into play. Also for that 3rd string the compensation of the two strings is the same so I can easily switch between unison and octave - or if I'm feeling anarchic unison octaves
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Post by scorpiodog on Jul 16, 2014 21:51:42 GMT
or if I'm feeling anarchic unison octaves Weird. Just weird. Mr White have you no respect for tradition?
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dadgad
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Post by dadgad on Jul 18, 2014 17:03:20 GMT
I found out how to use Soundcloud today! Now lets see if I can post the link. This is a slow Scottish lament called 'Archibald MacDonald of Keppoch'. Archibald MacDonald was one of the Chieftains who supported Bonnie Prince Charlie and who was killed bravely but hopelessly charging the English guns at Culloden. The tune was first popularised by fiddler Johnny Cunningham (brother of Phil the accordion player), and the first theme I play is an arrangement in DADGAD by an American player called Scott Arbuckle. There are then a couple variations of my own before I revert back to the theme. You can hear it sounds somewhere between a normal 6 string and 12 string. You'll also hear how tricky it is to fret! Archibald MacDonaldhttps%3A//soundcloud.com/dadgad-4/archibald-mcdonald-of-keppoch
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