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Post by vince on Aug 12, 2014 23:19:19 GMT
Hi everyone, Long time lurker - first time poster. Just introduced myself over on the introductions board. Posted a question about Brooks over on AGF a while back and ocarolan suggested I pop over here. Over the last few years I've been thinking about selling a few lefties and getting into the hand-built thing with a uk builder. Correspondended with a few luthiers and done much online research. Shortlist currently consists of Brook, Taran, Adrian Lucas, Kinkade and Atkin.
I had wondered whether my distinctly amateur hands and ears would notice the difference from the factory builds I've been playing all these years (Larrivee 03's, Martin 15's and Cole Clark). Had hit and miss experiences over the years trying top end stuff and, though I could see and feel high build quality, I couldn't necessarily feel and hear the tone. But last year a Lowden F32 and Brook Torridge began to change my mind.
As luck would have it I'm currently in Pittenweem on holiday (my wife booked it unknowingly). Rory Dowling has been nice enough to let me visit Taran guitars. Lovely bloke - makes a solid cup of tea. Amazing new workshop. Had an upside down noodle on a Tirga Baeg and a Taran Mhor (never have I been so frustrated to be a lefty). Was great to have such a good conversation about tone and how to go about putting together the right guitar for you. As for the sound and build quality. Wow! I think I get the hand built thing now.
It seems a different world - pricey - but very tempting. It seems you really need to know what you need though. I've seen Andy Howells' great blog about his Lucas build and that has some good advice. Would anyone care to enlighten me on their experiences with Taran or any of the luthiers I've mentioned above? Would appreciate your thoughts. Sory for the long thread - got a bit carried away. Cheers - Vince
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Post by vikingblues on Aug 13, 2014 6:33:56 GMT
Don't worry about the long thread - nice to see enthusiasm. But I'll leave forum members who have been down this road to bring their thoughts to this thread. It's of interest to me too, as I'm hesitantly moving along this same route of maybe getting a hand built acoustic, but I'm a lot earlier in the process than where you have got to. I still have those reservations that you previously had about whether I can get enough extra from such a guitar to justify the cost. There's plenty of members here with such guitars - I'm sure they'll be able to bring a lot of good advice to you. Mark
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alig
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Post by alig on Aug 13, 2014 6:38:26 GMT
Welcome and no worries about long thread... You'll fit right in here.
Re your topic. Rory made a couple of Tirga Beags for me and I can't see much further than him. However, Dave White - of this forum - makes a mean guitar too. There are plenty of recordings of his work on here...
My own opinion os that yes, there is a huge difference between factory/hand-made. Again, I think this has been csort of covered in other threads here (It'll take some time but a wee look around will answer some of your questions). The main point being that you get a guitar that is built for YOU. Your luthier will meet you and hear you play. He'll also figure out what exactly your playing style is and build accordingly. That was my experience with Rory and I think it's common to all luthiers.
It was a bit of an eye-opener for me - when Rory asked me how I plated and what exactly I wanted I was stumped. It took him listening to me and telling me what he was hearing to help me understand what I played. I suppose we spend most of our time just playing and not analysing what/how we play - it takes an outside, objective ear. After all, the builder you choose has to build you what YOU want and will, nine times out of ten (I suspect...) have to help you in deciding that. (certainly true in my case) That's his job.
I found the whole thing a wonderful and helpful experience and yes, Rory is a top bloke! What about his new workshop - a bit of alright!? Did he show you the space where he used to make his guitars.
If the Tirga Beag you tried was Cocobolo/Adirondack... the chances are it's mine... What did you think?
You'll get plenty of advice here - almost all of it good and sound too...! It'll be very helpful.
All the best,
Alasdair.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Aug 13, 2014 7:59:46 GMT
+1 to taranguitars and +1 to davewhite, too! For me, as with others, it was an eye-opening process! I chose a luthier whose 'general' sound I liked, went to meet with him - spent time playing a selection of his instruments, drinking his tea and eating his food, and came away having commissioned an entirely different guitar than the one I had initially thought of getting! This was because Dave looked and listened to my playing style (a misnomer if ever there was one!) and what I thought I wanted out of an instrument and then advised me as to which model would meet my needs best. He wasn't wrong. There then followed about a million emails and phone calls as small details were added, changed, removed, put back again over a period of 6 months or so before I was able to go and pick up my instrument. One of the real, tangible benefits for me of having a luthier-built instrument is the 'lifetime guarantee for as long as you own it' aspect - along with the knowledge that a luthier won't let out of his or her workshop an instrument that they aren't happy with (it is their reputation, after all). I'd love to have a Taran - Rory has done repair work for me on a mandolinetto but though I've played his guitars (and, yes, drunk his tea) I've never had the funds available at the right time (or my wife's been with me ). One of the benefits of a Taran is that you get the chance to go and spend more time up in the East Neuk of Fife; surely one of the most beautiful places on earth. I don't know the Brook guys - but there are some here who do - check out @robbiej's youtube page for some choons ( Phil Taylor is a Brooky, too). I've never played a bad one (though I've played good ones badly). As well as YouTube there is stuff in The Plucky Duck section, too... In short (and I know this isn't short but, hey, you started it) deciding on a luthier-built guitar will lead to the most nerve-wracking year of your life followed by countless years of patting yourself on the back for having done the right thing
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Post by vince on Aug 13, 2014 8:05:00 GMT
It was indeed a Coco/Adi Tirga Baeg and it was lovely. You're lucky to have the joy of playing it regularly. Couldn't get the best out of it with my upside down picking though. Rory suggested that body shape for what I do but with Italian spruce. There was something special going on in the bottom end of the Braz rosewood Mhor as well, I must say.
I had to fight temptation to rough spec a guitar there and then and told Rory that a decision like this would have to be after consultation with my wife (please don't take offense girls, I say this out of honest respect for my lady rather than any stereotypical 'she who must be obeyed' vibe). Apparently there's one lefty Taran somewhere down south so I might get the chance to play one properly after all.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Aug 13, 2014 8:31:24 GMT
Commissioning an instrument is an exciting process vince. It can also be a very rewarding one, and you stand a very good chance of getting your "lifetime" instrument IF you i) know exactly what you want from the future instrument in terms of sound and feel. ii) make yourself really familiar with what your chosen builder produces and how different instruments from them sound/feel. iii)establish some sort of rapport with your builder so you can communicate what you mean by i) and what they understand by it. iv) let the builder know what main uses (styles and situations) you have for the instrument, and let them watch you play in those styles. v) be clear on those things you wish to specify exactly, and which areas you are happy to leave to the builder's judgement. I reckon these things are more important than wood choices (often the first thing that springs to mind - resist the temptation) at this early stage - see what various builders achive with them, as often particular instruments can confound your expectations. I have had experience of commissioning instruments from our own davewhite and from Roger Bucknall (Fylde) - in each case the process was a delight (apart from the agony of waiting, though with Dave that was short-lived and somewhat eased by frequent photo updates here on the Forum!)and the resulting instruments are both superb. Good luck, Keith
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Post by earwighoney on Aug 13, 2014 8:42:21 GMT
I think finding the 'right' for your playing style is a very important thing, opposed to buying the 'best' guitar. Atkin and Kinkeade build guitars in the Martin/American tradition whilst Taran, Lucas, and maybe even Brook are more European in character. If I was a ragtime guitarist, I'd reckon there's a chance a Kinkeade would be a better fit as if I played Celtic music maybe a Taran would be a better fit.
If I was a left hander, I'd be intrigued to try a Lucas guitar as his bracing is symmetrical and unless the guitar has a cutaway/multi scale like Andy's, one of Adrian Lucas' guitars to be turned from right to left hand and vice versa is a new saddle and nut.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Aug 13, 2014 9:35:06 GMT
I commissioned a guitar from Rory in 2011, and visited him quite a few times in his Edinburgh workshop (a tiny little cupboard compared to what he has now!). Like you, I only did it with the consultation and approval of my good lady I didn't really know exactly what I wanted, although I had a few parameters and let Rory fill in the gaps. I wanted the Tirga Beag shape, for playing fingerstyle and strumming. I also wanted African Blackwood B&S (dunno why, but it seemed cool He then looked at me playing a guitar and decided on the neck profile and that was pretty much it. After that, it was only smaller details like bindings, headstock veneers/backplates and tuners.
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Post by Banadog on Aug 13, 2014 13:06:36 GMT
As a fellow lefty I understand your frustration. My advice, which is not easy, and not very original, is to play the guitar you are going to buy or at the very least a left handed version of it. Playing upside down will only give a rough guide, which I feel is not worth risking over two grand. Most luthier guitars tend to be not necessarily better than each other, only different. The Lowden f32 is probably one of the best left handed factory guitars that you can go into a shop and try.
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Post by slasher on Aug 13, 2014 15:25:11 GMT
Welcome to the forum Vince. When I was looking for my first guitar of quality I came across Moon guitars and loved the sound. I did'nt like the neck, it was too narrow at the nut-43mm. I told them that this was the only problem as I loved the sound. Their reply "We'll make you one with a wider neck then!" So there you have the benefit of buying from a small maker in a nutshell.
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Post by pnut on Aug 13, 2014 16:43:18 GMT
It wasn't a special commission but I'm very pleased with my Atkin rosewood standard OM, apparently he will make the nut in either 43 or 45mm if you are commissioning one specially. Agree with what Earwighoney said about sound, my Atkin has a sound very different to lot of the lovely Brooks I've heard that are owned by people on here. Both are brilliant guitars but they do have very different sound characteristics and depending what you play one might be better than the other.
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on Aug 13, 2014 17:40:23 GMT
It seems you really need to know what you need though. Cheers - Vince Do you really? I'm not so sure about that, especially if it's your first commission of a handmade guitar. Let me take the liberty to tell how my approach to this matter was a few years ago: When I decided to order my first handmade guitar I had a vague idea what I wanted that guitar for and how I wanted it to be: a big guitar with a cutaway, lots of sustain for altered tunings from DADGAD to CGDGCD and mainly celtic fingerstyle. That was the idea. I then started to surf the web. We do have quite a few luthiers over here, though not as many as on the British Isles and certainly not as many as in the States. I found a luthier who gave me the impression of doing exactly what I was looking for. His idea of music, the style of his guitars, some of their features, it all seemed to fit. I made an appointment and drove down there. I told him what I had in mind, which obviously wasn't too much of a help, and then he gave me one of his guitars and asked me to play. I played about 30 minutes, maybe more, while he studied my playing, the way I held the guitar, he examined my style, my picking the strings - everything. Based on these observations he proposed the size, the woods, the neck, the specials. We worked through this all together, I made a few alterations he found reasonable and that was it. About half a year later I drove down there again to see what he had made out of it. The result is my Akquarius, one of the best guitars I ever played. To cut a long story short: if you think you know exactly what you want, then you might be on the wrong track. I strongly recommend to trust in your luthier's abilities. He most likely knows a lot more about guitars than you do, and it would be a waste of know-how not to make use of it. I never met Rory personally, but the few Taran guitars I played would let me be convinced enough to do the whole matter once again in exactly the same way. And this would also be the case with DeFaoite (which actually happened a slight bit differently ), Brook or Fylde guitars.
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Post by vince on Aug 14, 2014 7:30:29 GMT
Thanks everyone for their comments and some really helpful advice given so far. Glad I joined this forum - good quality conversation! I definitely intend I put my trust in the luthier, after all it's their area of expertise, not mine. My area of expertise should be listening to what my hands, ears and eyes have told me over the years alongside the sound I'm after in my head. It's interesting being asked to articulate these things as it seems to help knock out any contradictions in my thinking along the way.
I suppose what I mean about knowing what you need is on a more general level e.g. Not commissioning a folky sounding parlour because you think you want one, or love the designs of that particular luthier, when what you really need for your playing style is a J45 type. I've seen many classified ads on AGF of commissioned customs for sale after a surprisingly short time. One that stands out was a Sobell Martin Simpson model: four years old and already being sold onto its third owner because people hadn't bonded with it. Others I've seen have been being sold due to neck profile, fingerboard radius etc.. These sound like cautionary tales on the perils of custom guitars to me. I would want to get it right.
It feels a bit like choosing the right architect to design your house (not that I've ever had the luxury, just have a passing interest in architecture). It's a collaboration between individuals that somewhere along the line, meet in the middle and push each other creatively. You need to find the right professional to realise your dream in the first place but you also need to be a good client and have a reasonable idea of what you want to use your space for as well as what you want it to look like. I wonder how many potentially wonderful houses have been compromised in the final analysis by inconsistent design features insisted on by a stubborn client: or vice versa.
Cheers, Vince
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Aug 14, 2014 7:41:31 GMT
I definitely intend I put my trust in the luthier, after all it's their area of expertise, not mine. My area of expertise should be listening to what my hands, ears and eyes have told me over the years... ...It feels a bit like choosing the right architect to design your house (not that I've ever had the luxury, just have a passing interest in architecture). It's a collaboration between individuals that somewhere along the line, meet in the middle and push each other creatively. You need to find the right professional to realise your dream in the first place but you also need to be a good client and have a reasonable idea of what you want to use your space for as well as what you want it to look like... Cheers, Vince This is absolutely spot on. It is a creative partnership based on trust and respect. With this approach, you cannot go far wrong. Brian
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alig
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Post by alig on Aug 14, 2014 7:44:40 GMT
Good luck!
The two TBs Rory made for me are the same model but have very different characteristics. I wanted one for alt tunings and one for standard - you played the one for standard. I have quite a percussive strumming style and the Coco/Adi is built accordingly. The other is Malaysian Blackwood/Spruce and an altogether instrument.
It'll be fun!
Alasdair.
PS Have a look at the various build threads - I suspect mine is one of the longest... - that'll give you some idea of the whole process.
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