volante5767
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Post by volante5767 on Nov 3, 2014 6:56:21 GMT
Hi Guys, I went for my 3rd visit to my Guitar teacher, we have jelled quite well, he's a nice bloke and an excellent musician.I really enjoyed my first two lessons,but the 3rd one really got my thinking....... First of all, i am NOT trying to offend any Guitar teachers, just my thoughts/ opinion and would like to know what others think.
I pay £10 for half a hour lesson and think that's very fair.
The issue i have is this...When i started my lesson, the teacher and i had a quick chat about how i was getting on[as you do] He then played a song on the Guitar as i watched, he then gave me the Tab sheet for the song, i had a little crack at it,he played it again,we chatted a bit,then the lesson was finished.
To be honest, i left feeling a bit deflated. The thought that struck me as soon as i left his house was this...I could have watched that song played on a Youtube tutorial and got the Tab for free, but i just paid a £10 for it!
Is Youtube and the net killing 'Human Teachers'? as it really felt like it on my last lesson.....
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Wild Violet
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Post by Wild Violet on Nov 3, 2014 8:11:14 GMT
Yes, I would say it is killing teachers.
One thing a teacher can help you with that youtube can't, is watching how you're playing and being able to spot any incorrect techniques that may hinder you down the line if they have become a habit.
I am (still) trying to learn to flatpick, and have watched hundreds of youtube videos and gone through several DVDs on the subject. I went to a Steve Kaufman workshop a few years back and the first thing he said was "You're holding the pick wrong. That position won't allow you to pick up any speed." I was holding it how I thought the DVDs and videos had shown me, and would have kept holding it that way if he hadn't been there to tell me differently.
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Post by vikingblues on Nov 3, 2014 8:19:16 GMT
I have a feeling that quite a lot of guitar teachers lessons are structured like that. Here's a song to play, have a go at it, that's not bad, now lets try this one. The key to me in this scenario would be if I was having to take the song "home" with me, work at it, and then have some constructive work on it afterwards - how things might be changed or improved. If you're getting feedback on technique and looking at possible alternatives then that is a plus of face to face lessons. If ..... I did used to have lessons (classical) and it did start to feel very like being on a hamsters wheel, just going round and round and not really getting anywhere in terms of interpretation and the finer points of technique - just a gradual increase in the technical difficulties (and pain to the hands) of the pieces being learned. I think it was very much geared to the idea of a pupil looking to pass exams by being technically able to play to a certain level. So it was more about that technical ability than concentrating on aspects of music making. I guess I should have made more of a fuss about what I was wanting but something about the relationship made that tricky. Unfortunately being a good musician doesn't mean being a good teacher. I get the impression from others that sometimes being very good at something can get in the way of teaching because it becomes difficult to think down to the level of the pupil. Not that I've ever been that good at anything to know from personal experience. Mark
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stringdriventhing
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Post by stringdriventhing on Nov 3, 2014 8:28:58 GMT
Hey volante5767. Out of interest who is deciding what you will cover in the lessons? I had a few lessons five or six years ago. I wanted to learn very specific things and the teacher was good enough to be able to provide that in his lessons. A good teacher will be able to tailor his/her lessons to what you want to learn. On the other side of the coin, I also taught a group of total beginners a few years back - that was very different as it was a group thing and we were following a syllabus of sorts. I did try to get them to suggest songs they'd like to learn to make them feel more involved in things, but it was pretty much impossible to tailor things for each individual. Very good point from Lynn above about youtube not helping you correct your technique. Youtube is brilliant for cutting corners on learning songs/tunes, but a lot of the stuff on there is a bit light in terms of teaching technique.
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volante5767
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Post by volante5767 on Nov 3, 2014 8:58:32 GMT
Stringdriventhing.. that's a very good point you made too,about who decides what songs you learn. Well,on my last lesson[the disappointing one] as soon as the lesson started the teacher gave me 'Scarborough Fair' the famous Simon and Garfunkel number....Its an ok song i thought,but not one i would have chosen.I really think my teacher thinks its a good song for me? and he knows best? Just as i was leaving the lesson i told him a song i was interested in, Peter Gabriels Solsbury Hill, now i love that one! and after that, REM'S Losing my Religion! maybe i have to be one jump ahead of my teacher to get the best from my lessons? After all, im the one who's paying!
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Post by clydeslide on Nov 3, 2014 9:43:42 GMT
I suppose it depends what you are learning, what stage you are at and how you want to progress.
I learnt classical guitar for 10 years from a teacher. I am sure this is the reason I can play the stuff I can play while many self-taught guys can't. I'm also sure its the reason I'm pretty quick at learning things. But that was starting out from scratch. If I was starting with a base it might have been different.
Anyone can teach themselves to strum a few chords, it just takes a little perseverance and dedication, so if that's what your aim is maybe a teacher is the wrong way to go about it.
But as others have pointed out, getting a correct technique sorted is very helpful if you do want to progress and that's something you can't learn from an online video.
I've just started singing lessons. I could have looked up lessons and books but what I really need is someone to listen to me, comment on my voice, phrasing, breathing, pitch etc. and make suggestions as to how to improve. You can't get that from YouTube videos. A simple one was force smiling whenever I was singing a word ending in "ing". It really does work.
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Post by nkforster on Nov 3, 2014 9:54:02 GMT
Over the years I've taught quite a few folk guitar, and so far the younger they have been the easier it is. Mainly because the older students have been more specific about what they want to learn and how they want to learn it. Doing what they want isn't always appropriate or even beneficial. Usually because they're wanting to run before learning to walk. It's tricky. The customer is paying, so you want want they want, but what if you're in no way ready for what you want? One student came wanting to play some pretty complex jazz but wasn't able to do even basic chord substitution. That had to come first, but it wasn't what they wanted. They didn't come back, frustrated with my unwillingness to give them what they wanted. It's much easier with kids, as they've been more open to just practice what I give them, and the ones who have practiced have realised I've given the tools to teach themselves by being able to listen to records and hear certain patterns, and have a good idea how to know what voicing a player might be using. Back to the thread: as others have said, YouTube is great for getting the chords to a song, but it's not great for learning how to listen. That's possibly the most important tool to have in the toolbox. Sometimes you might feel you're not getting much for your money when all the teacher has done has made a few comments and played a bit, but in the end all they can do is show, explain, correct and encourage. But in order to do that, in order to make the right comments, in order to show you where you're going wrong it can take years of practice. So that "useful" comment might only take 10 seconds to say and two minutes to show, but it might be the accumulation of thirty years of playing. Im not sure you can get that so easily from DVDs or YouTube. Nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com
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Post by jonnymosco on Nov 3, 2014 10:23:50 GMT
Hi volante5767, first off, I think £10 for half an hour is very cheap, bargain. A teacher is there to coach you through pieces... but really, that's missing the point; learning one song, then another till you build up a repertoire is approaching it from the wrong angle. Ideally a teacher will help you strengthen your techniques and skills to enable you to be a better and fulfilled musician, playing confidently without any stress or physical limitations... the result being that you'll be prepared to play any pieces of your choice. A good teacher will also inspire you, help you reach your potential and introduce you to a whole new world of the guitar. Not very helpful, just some thoughts on the role of a teacher. Hope it works out, if it doesn't then check out the RGT site. Jonny
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stringdriventhing
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Post by stringdriventhing on Nov 3, 2014 12:48:13 GMT
Doing what they want isn't always appropriate or even beneficial. Usually because they're wanting to run before learning to walk. It's tricky. The customer is paying, so you want want they want, but what if you're in no way ready for what you want? When I went for lessons I had already been playing for about 30 years, so I think it was fair enough to ask the teacher to home in on certain things. In my case that was musical theory as applied to the guitar, rather than technique or learning songs/tunes. I agree that for beginners the teacher has to take control of the pace, but I still think a student is more likely to practise things that they like and want to learn to play.
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Nov 3, 2014 20:56:43 GMT
Hello there volante5767. I'd be inclined to have a couple more lessons before deciding. At the next lesson you'll find out whether you find his feedback useful on the piece you've been given, and before you go you could perhaps think a bit more about what you'd like him to teach you. For example, if Solsbury Hill would be too difficult at the moment, can he give you pieces which will build the skills needed for that tune? £10 is very cheap. I think I was paying more than that in 1985, and some flamenco teachers charge $200 per lesson.
Perhaps he needed a couple of lessons to assess where you are at the moment, and where you want to go (to give him the benefit of the doubt).
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Post by creamburmese on Nov 3, 2014 21:53:41 GMT
I agree with nkforster and missclarketree - I've been taking weekly lessons since I started playing (a whole 18 months ago) - I'm no great shakes but I'm sure I wouldn't' be where I am without my teacher. Here's the deal - he does indeed come up with the stuff I need to learn to make progress (including both exercises and melodies). However as an adult learner, he knows I'm not the least bit interested in exams and I only do this for fun. But it's serious fun! I definitely want to improve and do it faster than I could muddling around on my own.... So I've had enough lessons that he now knows the things I like (minor keys, not too schmalzy) and comes up with 5 or 6 options from which I get to pick what to learn. And because I usually have 4 or 5 pieces in various stages of completion, I also bring (or request) pieces that I want to play and throw them into the mix (there's only so much classical guitar stuff that can be tolerated at one time after all ) So thinking about it, of the 4 or 5 pieces I have in play right now, 2 were chosen from his options and 3 were mine. His choices are intended for me to work on specific things (I even know what they are most of the time ) and they are also the appropriate level of challenging - IOW I can make a pretty good stab at them within a few weeks. Mine, on the other hand, vary from - " a lot of fun"to "it probably take me till Christmas and may still not sound too good!! " It's funny, sometimes i really don't necessarily know or like the pieces he gives me, but I eventually get to like them a lot. I hadn't thought much about this before - but I probably continue to play an equal proportion of the songs he gave me vs. the ones I chose. Interesting. So I would say that your teacher is picking things without a lot to go on yet because you haven't been working with him/her for very long. Maybe you can ask him for options or bring HIM options, and get him to explain why he suggests a particular piece? You may not really get a lot out of lessons until you go back and play them for him and he can comment on what needs to be fixed and how to fix it. Scarborough Fair was actually the very first piece my teacher gave me to learn... Taught me I needed to use a metronome and probably other things too Best of luck! Julie
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Post by marcus on Nov 4, 2014 3:02:41 GMT
This is a very interesting thread with some informative insights. Having briefly started and quickly stopped lessons with two teachers over the last 5 years or so, I get the impression that I fell in with teachers who operate in a way that is similar to volante's experience... showing me a few songs to play but not a whole lot of critical feedback. It hasn't really worked for me.
The posts by nkforster and jonnymosco sound to me like they are describing the demarcation line between a teacher as opposed to someone who helps you learn songs. I wonder if this means that next time I should try a classically trained teacher or someone with a degree in music education as opposed to a good player who likes to give lessons. I guess it would be easier to find a classically trained guitarist with the sort of "teaching skills" nkforster and jonnymosco mention.
I hope it works out for you volante...
Cheers, marcus
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Post by vikingblues on Nov 4, 2014 8:27:47 GMT
Agreed Marcus - an interesting thread. The experience of volante5767 seems to tie in with experiences I often see recounted on forums by people taking lessons. Not wanting to throw cold water on the classically trained aspect, but there still remains the problem that even highly qualified teachers can be very poor in being on the other side of the fence and trying to impart that knowledge to others. From personal experience too they can be very narrow minded in their ideas, in particular of what is acceptable in interpretation - it can be a very restrictive and ultimately depressing regime. I do feel that a good working relationship and rapport between pupil and teacher is hugely important in lessons as without that no amount of knowledge imparted by the teacher is going to make the experience pleasant. Pot luck really - if it works and you find a teacher that enthuses you then you've struck gold with lessons. Good luck to all who search! Mark
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Nov 4, 2014 9:30:52 GMT
Hi Guys, I went for my 3rd visit to my Guitar teacher, we have jelled quite well, he's a nice bloke and an excellent musician.I really enjoyed my first two lessons,but the 3rd one really got my thinking....... Thinking is good! Sounds like a promising start if you get on well. You're still very early in your relationship though. Have you established the "ground rules" - ie have you clearly stated what you want to achieve from taking lessons? Has your teacher clearly explained what you will need to do to achieve your goals, and how that will be accomplished? The issue i have is this...When i started my lesson, the teacher and i had a quick chat about how i was getting on[as you do] He then played a song on the Guitar as i watched, he then gave me the Tab sheet for the song, i had a little crack at it,he played it again,we chatted a bit,then the lesson was finished. To be honest, i left feeling a bit deflated. The thought that struck me as soon as i left his house was this...I could have watched that song played on a Youtube tutorial and got the Tab for free, but i just paid a £10 for it! That first part of your lesson could be the most valuable part of all, depending on what exactly was covered. You need an opportunity to show how you have managed with the previous lesson content - both difficulties and successes - playing is part of this, but a converation is crucial, provided it isn't just general social chit-chat. Did you have a chance to talk seriously about how you managed with the previous lesson content? Don't forget that any particular lesson is only a small part of a bigger whole. It would be unwise to dismiss one specific lesson as not being worth the (extremely modest) fee you paid - there will hopefully be other lessons where what you learn is priceless. Again it comes back to goals - a course of lessons is what is required to achieve a stated aim, and you won't necessarily achieve those goals in equal increments lesson by lesson; there may seem to little progress at times, but there will be seemingly giant leaps accomplished on occasion. The song you were given may well be just what will help you progress technically and musically - yes, you could have found a lesson on it on Youtube, but would you have picked that particular song to search for? Your sense of deflation is the first thing you should discuss at your next lesson - all may become clear at the next one. I hope so. Is Youtube and the net killing 'Human Teachers'? as it really felt like it on my last lesson..... I suspect there's a tendency for some human teachers to emulate Youtube videos and thereby lose all the interactive benefits that having a real teacher can bring. There's a common misconception among many prospective students, and indeed some teachers, that lessons teach you to play. They don't. What teaches you is your own enthusiasm to achieve specific goals, and your teacher's enthusiasm for guiding you towards them. The route isn't always a straight line - you will need to make detours to learn specific techniques or add to your theoretical knowledge base in order to travel some parts of the route ahead. The crucial thing is knowing where you want to go. Lessons should be far more than learning this song, then that song. Dependence on TAB/notation tends to teach you to play (almost by rote) partcular pieces. Good lessons from good teachers to receptive pupils will do so much more - hope fully some sense of delight in music for its own sake will be fostered, and the student will be encouraged to look outside their current musical interests. A good teacher will sense how to best encourage their students, but a good student will also draw the best out of their teacher. Two-way communication is vital - you seem to have made a reasonable start on that, but do actively keep it up. And, if you haven't done already, make sure you define your goals to your teacher, and agree with them what their input (and yours!)is to be in order to achieve them. Hope you'll let us know how the next lesson goes. Keith
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Post by creamburmese on Nov 4, 2014 13:11:42 GMT
You could do worse than look for a classical teacher - I ended up there because I wanted to get the basics right, and I had 2 failed attempts to gel with acoustic teachers who handed me songs but had very little advice about how to solve problems... However I certainly wouldn't be happy if I had a classical guitar teacher who stuck with "the repertoire" and was inflexible about what to learn. I had a trial lesson with one guy who referred to learning guitar as "work" - any time it becomes work I'll find another hobby!!! I do think you probably focus more on technique with a classical teacher (though you might end up with the guitar on the other knee and carting a footstool around ).
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