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Post by vikingblues on Jan 11, 2015 6:20:47 GMT
So I was making a start on exploring the Jim Tozier "Celtic Guitar Solos" book that arrived on Friday. Looking at DADGAD pieces (saves retuning the guitar). "Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation", "Spatter the Dew" and "Star of the County Down" were teh first batch and I've been playing around with them for 36 hours or so, and realised that I knew the first of these from Steeleye Span. Funny thing happened on "Star of the County Down" - suddenly had a notion of wondering what that first phrase would sound like extended, then the second one, then a thought of what if it was in 4 beats to the bar, what if I slowed it down to let the notes ring out more, and what if it was played without the capo rather than a capo at the fourth fret. Suddenly damn it, I was working on two pieces instead of one. Anyone else have this immediate sort of spin off from an existing piece - I've borrowed and manipulated phrases etc before, but not ripped something off in quite such an extensive or shameless way? Both pieces need a lot of work still and the proper version is in the very early stages - I have not listened to Jim Toziers version yet. I like to get some sort of interpretation under way before I do that so I'm not just trying just a copy. Don't Feel Down Star of the County Down (early days yet)These are the first recordings with the Lowden S32 since I put Newtone Heritage strings on. After an initial adjustment to get used to what I am hearing I do like the sounds ... some pluses and some minuses. Mark
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brianr2
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Post by brianr2 on Jan 11, 2015 10:37:34 GMT
I don't think you have anything at all to apologise for. A legal definition of plagiarism is:
"The act of appropriating the literary composition of another author, or excerpts, ideas, or passages therefrom, and passing the material off as one's own creation."
This you have not done.
Every arragement of plan existing tune borrows from the original composer, including Jim Tozier himself.
While I can hear the roots of your arrangements, I think you have added something significant of your own to create a new hybrid. Your version is distinct and, for me, much more appealing. I like the space you have created to let the melody breathe and the air of melancholia you have introduced, bringing a sense of rueful yearning to the sentiment behind the ordinal song.
I look forward to hearing the finished piece.
Brian
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Jan 11, 2015 11:43:11 GMT
I love your Star of the County Down Mark. Some lovely resonances and very nicely played.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Jan 11, 2015 12:27:58 GMT
Anyone else have this immediate sort of spin off from an existing piece - I've borrowed and manipulated phrases etc before, but not ripped something off in quite such an extensive or shameless way? I've only ever done three or four hundred times... If I wasn't allowed to plagiarise, all my songs would be poems
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 11, 2015 13:52:43 GMT
If musical ideas are popping into your head, even when inspired by an existing tune, I think it's a sign of true creativity. You must have had an aptitude for it to begin with, but you have developed it with your previous experience with improvisation. It would be a shame not to express it, and I agree brianr2 that it's not plagiarism as you're acknowledging your sources. I enjoyed both tunes - nicely played.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jan 11, 2015 14:18:36 GMT
Not plagiarising - it's the folk process - Star of the County Down is a tune that crops up in all sorts of places and with various names and with different time sigs., often in 4/4 but occasionally 3/4. I'd be inclined to refer to your lovely adaptation of it as just that, a variation on SotCD, which your title hints nicely at. In fact you might find that you could start with your variation and then go into the more "straight" version, or vice versa, playing them both together as one piece. Could be good. You'll find the tune used for several hymns too, as folk tunes often are. eg "Kingsfold" is v obviously SotCD and is often used in overly ornate harmonised form for "I heard the voice of Jesus say". Loved both versions - really well done on these Mark - cracking stuff, nicely played and lovely sounds! Keith
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Post by arthurp on Jan 11, 2015 22:18:02 GMT
Surely that is the essence of folk music vikingblues. To my mind it is all of those thousands of people over scores, if not hundreds of years, being influenced by and influencing the core of an idea, colouring, shading, extending and interpreting it further. Most of them started out as the creations of that well known and prolific composer "Anon" anyway, didn't they? To my mind, you have added your insight and gifts to it, deepening and broadening it even further. Good on yer! Plus, it sounds really nice. Another thought I had was that what you write about is one of the reasons we love trying to make music. Even when we are merely 'studying', it engages our creativity and is deeply satisfying. Re-reading this before I punched the 'create' button, if it comes accross as a bit pretentious, or 'arty farty', I apologise to all and sundry. But actually, that is how it struck me- I mean it.
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 11, 2015 23:41:38 GMT
I'm grateful for you all encouraging me that I'm not cheating. I'm pleased to hear positive things about the early stab at "Star of the County Down". I've now listened to Jim Toziers version and am happy that I'm at least in the right ballpark. It did take a bit of concentration - I'm still not used to 3 beats in a bar instead of 4 - it doesn't feel natural. I'm very pleased too to hear positive things from so many of you about my "adaptation". Brian - you hit the nail on the head with the word "melancholia" - I just am drawn to that sort of mood with acoustic guitar. Arthur - you mention making music as engaging our creativity and is deeply satisfying. Far from seeming pretentious what you say is very true for me. I do find the satisfaction I get from successfully playing a tune as written gives me much less of a feeling of achievement and less peace of mind. A good improvisation in creative mode leaves my brain feeling cleansed and me feeling much more relaxed. Keith - interesting what you say about tunes within the folk world - still all quite new to me and it's useful to get these bits of information to help me understand more about what I'm hearing and playing. I'm encouraged to hear no reservations expressed about the sound from the Newtone Heritage strings - a wonderful invention by Malcolm Newton. Mark
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Post by creamburmese on Jan 12, 2015 14:12:54 GMT
Really nice Mark -keep at it ! Lovely wistful sound
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