R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 12, 2016 20:44:01 GMT
I left off where the reinforcing centre-strip on the inside of the back was firmly clamped into the go-bar deck. It came out looking like this (and that was what it was supposed to look like, by the way): I know it's a bit messy but you get the general idea. Next I simply glued two more pieces on either side of and butting up against this centre strip. Here it is in the go-bar deck; if you don't like go-bar decks, I suggest you do something else immediately: As you can see, I used a piece of hardboard to even up the pressure. It came out looking like this on the inside: and like this on the outside: The joins on the inside need a bit of reinforcement so I used sapele constructional veneer again; and here they are not visible having the go-bar treatment: I notice the mess has been cleaned up a bit by this stage, too. Ah, look; I've got a picture of what it looked like when it came off the deck and I'd trimmed the ends off: It looks quite presentable now. Having all these shots of go-bar decks is less than exciting so I thought I'd better include an action shot. Here I am posing for the camera having removed my overalls in order to smarten up the thread a bit: What I'm doing here is sanding the rear edges of the sides ready to receive the back which is fast nearing completion. I was tempted to include a video to liven things up a bit, but I thought that might be pretentious even by my standards. Anyway, since the back is curved/arched from side to side but not from end to end, I am sliding the guitar back and forth in a kind of trough of sandpaper to get the right profile. It's nice when something so simple gives such a perfect result - and here is the result: Okay. Enough excitement. Back to the go-bar deck: Yes. Very uncontroversially I have gone for ladder bracing on the back. I've decided that, since the sides are so heavy and stiff, I might as well go the whole hog and make the back act as part of the very stiff support for the flat soundboard. The idea here is that it should reflect sound rather than take too much part in vibration itself so I'm going to leave it fairly thick and heavy and brace it across the grain. Picture of the go-bar deck: And that's it. I've been using fish glue throughout and leaving it to go off for a good number of hours (following previous experience) so haven't really got as far as I might have done but I'm quite pleased with my weekend's progress. Not really an awful lot left to do now...
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 13, 2016 21:19:20 GMT
I tried to carry on the momentum of the weekend by finishing off the back today. I ended up with a whole taped-together guitar: and the curved back is a pretty good fit, too. Even though the top of this guitar is absolutely flat, the whole effect is quite bulbous (if not "fast and bulbous - also tapered" *) because of the fairly extreme curve across the back. This picture gives an indication of this though you could probably give the same impression with a wide-angle lens and an absolutely flat back... The back came out of the go-bar deck late this morning with the ladder braces firmly - fingers crossed - attached. I have settled firmly in the camp of tapered or so-called "parabolic" braces for the soundboard and I pondered the sharp rectangular corners with a chisel in hand ready to start carving. Then a thought occurred to me; the reason for the vertical tapering of the braces is to retain height and therefore strength whilst losing as much weight as possible from the soundboard. Now I've already put my cards on the table and said that this back gives not a fig for weight problems: the beefier the better. What would you do if weight wasn't a consideration? I didn't really have an answer so finally - after about 3 seconds - decided on some cod-acoustics: I would carve flat reflective faces on the braces which would all attempt to bounce sound-waves towards the sound-hole. I don't know why, either, except that it's the sort of thing people do and pretend there is a scientific basis for it. Well, it won't do any harm so, unless someone can find a precedent, I'll see if I can claim a patent for this strange idea. Here is a picture which probably doesn't show very much but you have to imagine that the sound-hole is above the space between the two right-hand braces: Not very helpful. Perhaps the overhead shots will help (it's like the football, isn't it?) ... Anyway, it's a little talking point and it can't cause any problems that I can see. I'll tidy them up a bit more tomorrow. Again in the name of structural solidity, I notched the ends into the sides - a job which always seems to take an inordinate amount of fiddling about - and here's a splendid view of some notches: Nothing else to report at present so here's a picture to finish off the post: * Captain Beefheart, Trout Mask Replica, 1969
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 14, 2016 21:26:03 GMT
The snag with having a polished front with bridge and fretboard attached when you come to glue the back on is that you can't just plonk it on to a flat surface. A bit of firm foam (from an upholsterer I know) I thought might protect the front and allow the bridge and fretboard to sink without damage. I laid everything out on my flat "solera" with foam strategically placed, applied the fish glue to the surfaces and started tightening my spool-cramps. I was probably on my fifth or sixth circuit when I realised I was on to a loser; the whole thing was sinking further and further into the foam and taking pressure off the cramps I'd already tightened. A big decision: do you hope there aren't any gaps when it's dry tomorrow or do you take it apart now and wash the glue off? I took it apart and washed the glue off and will have another wiser go in the morning. Moral: upholstery and luthiery are unnatural bedfellows. I suppose I should have known that, shouldn't I?
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 16, 2016 11:16:05 GMT
Here, then, is what you don't want to do: In my defence, I would say that that foam is not quite as soft as you might imagine but it was still a very bad idea. Perhaps you didn't need to be told that but I find that things only ever become clear to me in hindsight. Before this failed attempt, incidentally, I had already sealed the inside of the back, leaving a gluing margin at the edge of course: And here is the set-up as it was in preparation this morning: (and don't those threaded-rods and wing-nuts gleam!) I've set the whole thing spaced above the solera on plywood blocks to give room for the bridge and fingerboard underneath but the cramping pressure is applied between the domed nuts (with washers) under the solera and the wing-nuts above the edge of the back-plate Not rocket science - though I always wondered whether rocket science was really that complicated since you seem to be able to make one out of Coke and Polos... Again, I'm not so sure about brain surgery, either; I mean a lot of it seems to consist of poking bits of brain and asking the patient whether s/he can still recite "Mary Had a Little Lamb" - but that's by the by here (and reminds me I have a hospital appointment later so I'd better not dawdle). Before applying the fish glue, which is exceeding runny in this muggy weather, I protected the insides a little so that there might not be such a demanding clean-up in the aftermath. Here we are: Yes, it's bits of paper taped right up to the glued edge. A detail: (and what can those numbers mean?) Finally for today (partly because I have a busy afternoon ahead and partly because I intend to give it the full 9-yards of drying time), here you will see it all glued up. The threaded cramps have a tendency to fall outward given half a chance so I have resorted to winding a bit of cord around them to hold them up against the edges where they are doing their stuff: (Does "the full nine yards" really refer to the 27-foot length of ammunition supplied to each gun in a Spitfire's wing? Answers on a postcard...)
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 17, 2016 20:37:53 GMT
I have to admit I was very proud of myself last night when I didn't remove the cramps from the gluing on of the back so that it stayed as it is above for about 22 hours all told. I wanted to make very sure the fish glue had gone off. I also had humidity down to around 40% (and nobody's noticed the electricity bill for it yet). I was very pleased with the results: everything seemingly firmly in place. I unfortunately had a struggle to remove all the paper and tape protection from inside the box even enlisting the slim arms of Bryn before he went to school this morning and there are still a few traces that need sorting out with Sticky-Stuff-Remover on cotton buds or some such not to mention a few minor bits of escaped glue. All in all, though, the paper and tape did a pretty good job. I had, out of interest, checked the wavelength spectrum of the front/sides and the loose back just before gluing the two together so I took this opportunity to see what similarities or differences there might be now that the two were glued together. I'm afraid I can't see any relationship at all. This seems to mean that spectrum analysis is not very relevant to voicing etc. apart from providing an opportunity to compare the current soundboard or back with the readings taken from previous builds. I next drilled out the holes in the machine head and again the sapele veneer chipped around the holes. In a fit of pique I removed it. I have fits of pique. Whether I'll stick with the rather ice-creamy look of the constructional maple veneer or sort things out with another layer of veneer remains to be seen but it is now, indeed, beginning to look like a guitar with everything attached. I now had a choice of either binding the back edges of the box or stringing the guitar up and seeing how the neck reacted and whether the bridge tipped and, of course, how the hell it would it sound. I obviously - as you will see from the picture above - could not resist going for the latter. You may remember that I almost finished building a jig some weeks ago which would allow me to mimic the shape of the neck under string-pull but without strings. You may also be aware that the risk with an absolutely flat soundboard is that it lacks integral strength and may be affected by the torque trying to twist the front of the bridge down and pull the back up. Just to make life more interesting, I had gone for slightly heavier strings this time and put on my Newtone Master Class 12-54s in a surprisingly relaxed frame of mind tuning them up half a tone short of normal tuning to begin with and then, once I felt things were looking good, going for EADGBe*. I put a straight edge along the fingerboard and it was, I'm afraid, pretty well dead flat. Now this may change when I hammer in the frets since the insertion of about 20 tangs tends to bend the neck back slightly if the the slots are even a tiny bit tight. But for now there was very little point attaching it to the new jig since there was nothing to improve here. I turned to the soundboard and had a good look. I suspect there is some sign here of the strain making the bracing pattern show through slightly and, of course, this effect may increase as time goes by but for now there doesn't seem to be too much of a problem: (I know the polish just above the bridge isn't nice but it's got to be cut back and refinished before it's done...) Now that it is fully laden with metalwork, I thought I might weigh the beast - bearing in mind that the back, sides and neck have not yet been polished, which might make a very slight difference one way or the other. It weighs 2.614 kilos as compared to the last one, which weighed 1.932 kilos. It truly is beefy. You may be wondering how it sounds; I certainly was. Well, you have to bear in mind that it has no frets as yet so you can't do much with it and at the bridge end the saddle consists of unshaped blocks of laburnum but, this lot notwithstanding, I didn't think it was half bad. It also sounds a little like a double bass being fretless. In the following recording, for what it's worth, the first of each pair is my previous guitar (as built in The Bryn Production) and the current effort follows each time. It all ends with a bit of fretless stuff... https%3A//soundcloud.com/rthef/beefy-fretless-bass*To allay your fears, I should say that the zero-fret had its barbs removed before insertion so that it will not damage anything when I remove it.
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
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Post by davewhite on Jun 18, 2016 11:53:38 GMT
Well - it sounds like a guitar This is an epic journey with as many twists and surprises as "The Peaky Blinders" - enthralling to watch in both cases
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 19, 2016 16:39:04 GMT
Thanks for the support, davewhite . I'll see if I can drag you away from the television with this. (Thanks to all the repeat "likers", too - you know who you are; it makes posts worth posting; I only do posts for you etc.) Having strung it up and looked at it, I've decided, I'm afraid, that the head is going to have to go through yet another rebirth. Shall I, I thought, go all fancy and cut away some of the maple and inlay a design? Here are some things that passed through my mind: Yes. A bit over the top. Keep it simple, I thought; above all, keep it British. So I think I have settled on laburnum (to match the fingerboard) but, mainly because I don't want to waste any of the wide-ish bits I have, I think I'll apply it with the grain running side to side. I might even divide the strips with sapele lines (as in the top row on the right in the picture above). As always, suggestions welcome on a postcard. (It's funny, by the way, how an ancient Persian tile design can transform into something from the late 50s when you remove the grout lines, isn't it?) My second thought was this: it would make sense to leave the strings on for up to a week to let the neck get used to the pull before I finalise the shaping of the fingerboard. It occurred to me that I could fill the time with a little research on fingerboard relief and 1st/12th fret action and so on. So I read some bits and pieces and then found that Mr Somogyi has some firm thoughts on this. Now I'm afraid I have a feeling he makes up some of his stuff as he goes along so I wasn't entirely convinced by his pictures of himself out in the yard twanging a bit of bungee elastic and telling me what I should be able to learn from this. Turns out he was not talking nonsense and it only took me about 3 hours to convince myself of the fact. You may be aware that there are a lot of videos on-line purporting to show the strange ways in which guitar strings vibrate. Don't be fooled; that tells you more about the technology being used to do the filming than it does about the string vibrations themselves. (Reminds me of the old days when people used to lean sideways and wheels were ovoid as in this photo). Well, I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about proper physicists doing demonstrations - like this chap here - (the good bit from around 1'10"): . Now you can see what this means, can't you? Maybe everyone else already knew this but I was so excited I had to draw myself some pictures. First of all, here is the sequence of events when you pluck a string near the end: and then it heads back again from the bottom picture back to the top (as you'll have seen in the video if it worked). The point here is that the string doesn't vibrate in the nice bow shape that we all imagine - well, I do, anyway. It only does something like that if you pluck it around the twelfth fret - i.e. half way along - and then only as the higher harmonics of the vibration die away. No; a plucked string begins its vibration - and that's when it's moving furthest side to side - as a linear wave; it really is all straight lines - literally. And I mean literally. Watch the video again if you don't believe it. This means that if you only ever play open strings and consistently pluck the string 150mm from the bridge, then you only have to provide fretboard relief at about 150mm from the nut - and that's somewhere around the 5th fret. Here is a picture of the vibration envelope of the open string to reinforce the point as if I haven't used enough italics already: Unfortunately, only I and a few others on the forum play open strings all the time so what happens when you start fretting? Well, here is a picture of the envelope of a string vibrating as it is fretted at a number of places up the fretboard: I've tried to use some common sense here in so far as I would expect there to be only about half the side-to-side vibration on the string when it is half the length so you will see that the "plucking height" when fretted at 12 is only half the plucking height when fretted at zero - and proportionately between the two. The interesting thing is that fretting seems to make little difference to where the relief is required; it's still diagonally opposite to the plucking point and the rest of the fretboard can be more or less straight lines. Importantly, the truss rod - be it one- or two-way - hasn't seen the video and therefore doesn't know any of this. It merrily strains away all along your neck bending it where it's weakest (not really having a clue what it's doing and probably whistling a tune at the same time). That means that something needs to be done about this before you put the frets on and that "something" will presumably mean a little carving away in the right places. (If you feel I am disappearing up my own bottom at this point then please feel free to look away now.) Bearing this in mind, I turned to the practicalities of the guitar I am building and looked along the fingerboard. Unfortunately, my eyes are getting tired these days and won't focus within the area that is of any use to see things in detail so I used technology. Here are the photos: bass side: treble side: What strikes me is that, so far at least, the string pull has had very little effect on the neck. Looks pretty straight to me, anyway. However, I know I will have to do something to it for several reasons: first because I haven't really finished radiusing it from side to side; second because there is not enough clearance at the twelfth fret so it would be unplayable with frets installed. I shall, therefore, be killing two (or even three) birds with one stone with a little stealthy and well-placed sanding/planing which will bring everything to perfection. Well, that's the plan. At the moment I have measured/calculated there to be 1.09mm clearance above the 12th fret on treble e and 1.24mm clearance on bass E. (The sub-saddle still needs trimming and there are no final saddle-wires installed so precise figures don't mean very much; suffice it to say that the treble side needs to lose a bit and the bass side needs to lose quite a lot around the top end of the fingerboard). At the first fret, fret-to-string clearances are about 0.6mm on the treble side and only 0.2mms on the bass side; again, it seems to be the bass side that could do with losing a little thickness. (A straight edge seems to suggest there is a very slight ramping up right at the head-end of the fingerboard between frets 1 and 0 so it will probably be a simple job to correct this problem. I seem to have run out of things to say now. Obviously I can't get on with shaping the fretboard till I've removed the strings and they are staying on for a few days and I can't get on with redecorating the head till I've removed the strings and ... It looks as if I might have to turn my attentions to the back binding and polishing over the next few days. Easy! (Now where have I heard that before?)
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 19, 2016 17:54:04 GMT
Interesting video!
But we don't pluck our strings to impart an up/down movement direction - when we pluck/strum our strings it sets the strings in motion mostly side to side, though with a slight up/down diagonal componet up/down motion, except for maybe classical thumb strokes pushing the string down towards the soundboard before releasing. So the "wave" form in the vid is happening much more sideways on a guitar and only slightly up/down. Yes/ No?
So maybe the amount of relief to allow for string vibration might be less than first thought on looking at the vid?
Am I missing something?
Keith
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 19, 2016 18:26:21 GMT
No, I'm sure you're right, ocarolan . I was more interested in exactly where the relief was needed as opposed to how much. In drawing my diagrams I, in fact, estimated 3mm lateral movement each side of centre as an absolute maximum and then timesed it by 10 (for clarity in the drawings) so there is at least 10 times too much vibration (amplitude?) in the pictures. I also assumed most movement would be across the fingerboard but had a good look at what my thumb does when plucking bass strings and noticed it actually plucks down and across in a kind of diagonal stroke. Then again, I can't really play! I think you have to allow for a maximum and then pull back from that mark as far as you dare. But no use asking me; I don't actually know what I'm talking about. We'll have to see how brave I am when it comes to applying metal to wood. (And thanks for coming in gently on this one; I'm expecting to be clouted by some heavyweights who actually do know what they're talking about over this!)
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Post by scripsit on Jun 20, 2016 2:30:11 GMT
Yes, you do need a little 'scooping' to stop the strings vibrating against the frets, but I'm a bit confused about why you need to shape the wood of the fretboard to put the necessary relief into it.
Isn't this what the truss rod is for?
Kym
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 20, 2016 6:33:33 GMT
As I understand it, the truss rod only does a fairly approximate job of what's required. If you want a low(ish) action, you either file the tops off irritating frets (and wonder why they are buzzing) or you look into precisely what the neck/fingerboard are doing to cause the problem in the first place. I think Roger Bucknall explains it better than I can here.
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Post by scripsit on Jun 20, 2016 7:43:15 GMT
I don't find that analysis very convincing. The action is determined by nut and bridge height, at least when the neck angle is OK.
Some who use light strings and have a light touch prefer a perfectly flat board. A typical relief, to take account of the cone shape of a vibrating string hit harder is usually very small for fingerstyle playing, perhaps 0.2 or 0.3 of a mm.
I've always been under the impression the reason the 'S' shape of the neck bend is made worse when you crank the truss rod too much is that the fretboard above the body join is glued down to the guitar top on most conventional guitars. And all of that would be made worse if the neck angle is not stable.
Kym
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Jun 20, 2016 8:52:10 GMT
I don't know what you're all on about... don't you just glue some spare wood together, stick some nails at one end and wind strings around them?
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Jun 20, 2016 8:54:56 GMT
I don't know what you're all on about... don't you just glue some spare wood together, stick some nails at one end and wind strings around them? That could be rodders you're thinking of there Leo, though your description is possibly a bit refined for his methods. Keith
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jun 20, 2016 9:11:04 GMT
I did include warnings about disappearing up my own orifice. Only my feet preventing total disappearance with the following... My exaggerated pictures of strings with huge vibrations seem to be confusing people. I agree we are talking about tiny amounts of relief and clearance between strings and frets here but that is always the case. My only point is the location of the relief which can be built into the shape of the fretboard/neck if we have a scientifically based idea of the way strings vibrate when plucked near one end. I think most of us - including me until yesterday - have a vaguely "scientific" idea that a string vibrates like this: Well, now I know it doesn't (if you pluck it near the end) and this makes a difference to where you want to provide relief for a vibrating string: not centred around the 12th fret; nearer the 5th fret. The Roger Bucknall thing was a slight red herring; he is talking about confronting the problem of the tiny concave and convex curves of a neck which starts out dead straight but is then affected by the stresses and strains of adding frets, strings and truss-rod. You would perhaps want to deal with these curves before giving the light-touch player a genuinely flat fingerboard. But a fingerboard which is planed dead straight by the careful builder will never be truly flat by the time it reaches the guitarist unless we can predict these potential problems either through science or through experience - or else we can take the pragmatic approach and just say, "Bugger the whys and wherefores; where's my Stewmac Neck Jig? That'll sort it." However you have arrived there, once you have that genuinely straight fingerboard, you can give it to a light-stringed light-fingered picker and say, "This is a dead straight fingerboard. Enjoy." But if your picker is going to put more oomph into their plucking, you will want to curve that fingerboard away from the vibrating string in the right area of the fingerboard. And this is the bit I was excited about yesterday. I'll let Ervin Somogyi say it in his way: "There is no greatest point of motion at the string's midpoint. This phenomenon goes to what I said about the best guitar action being gotten from a fingerboard that has a bit of extra scooped relief in the region of the fifth to the seventh frets, but otherwise has minimal curve in it." The location of this scoop "is actually set by the distance from the bridge to the player's hand. Necks and fingerboards can otherwise be minimally curved on either side of this scoop. The relief under the bass strings needs to be slightly deeper than the scoop under the treble strings because the bass strings, having more mass, have a greater excursion." [ The Responsive Guitar, Ervin Somogyi, Luthiers Press, 2009]
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