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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 19, 2016 14:11:39 GMT
Hi,
Really enjoying my new 12 string Auden; fabulous instrument, too good for me! Sound amazing strummed. The set-up is brilliant.
I would dearly love to develop fingerstyle technique on it but am finding it quite tough. There's not a lot of guidance on YouTube or the web generally and the few specific books don't get good write-ups. I have Roger McGuinness' DVD which is useful up to a point.
That's the point where I need guidance. On 6-ers I do all my fingerstyle with thumb and fingers; no pick/plectrum. I've never got on with using a pick (and probably not tried too hard) and don't really want to start now. But the few lessons on YouTube for 12 string fingerstyle/picking more or less all are based on using a pick.
So my main question is; am I unlikely to do anything meaningful on fingerstyle on a 12-er unless I develop using a pick? And if not, are there any resources you experts out there can guide me towards which use thumb and fingers.
FFJ
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Nov 19, 2016 14:28:54 GMT
I use a thumbpick and fingernails for 6ers and 12ers. I can just about cope for some things with a bare thumb on 6ers but don't get on very well with bare thumb on 12ers - not much space between the string pairs to get a digit in there! I also find it a lot easier to give both strings in a pair a decent pluck using thumbpick. Same apples to fingers, which is where nails come in handy. I treat the 12er the same as I would a 6er when it comes to playing fingerstyle. Sometimes a slightly simpler arrangement helps avoid the 12er sounding too overbusy. When I tried it at Halifax I really liked your Auden 12er for fingerstyle John - it played very easily for a 12er. I know you don't want to go down the thumbpick route, but do give it a decent try as in the end the results will be so muc better. I use a heavy Fred Kelly Speed Pick on my thumb for 6 and 12 string guitars. They are FAR easier to use than eg Dunlops etc. Several folk I know who reckoned they can't get on with thumbpicks have managed really well with these. Nails on your fingers will help lots too - they don't need to be long, just enough to catch the strings after the flesh. An alternative approach might be to try hybrid picking, ie a flatpick between thumb and first finger, with fingers 2 and 3 tinkling - I suspect this would be harder to get the hang of, though it is a v useful technique esp for simple fingerstyle things. Good luck! Keith
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Post by leoroberts on Nov 19, 2016 15:03:16 GMT
I can't really add to what Keith has said, John. I'm a thumbpicker - always have been. On a 12-er it really is helpful. Whilst I have recently been converted to Fred Kelly thumbpicks I still tend to use whatever is hanging around in the case...
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 19, 2016 15:40:17 GMT
I can't really add to what Keith has said, John. I'm a thumbpicker - always have been. On a 12-er it really is helpful. Whilst I have recently been converted to Fred Kelly thumbpicks I still tend to use whatever is hanging around in the case... Thanks Leo and Keith.
On 6-er I use my thumb (with a good nail) for both strum and f/style plus good finger nails. On many songs I will mix both F/style and strum within the song and even a line or bar of a song, brushing up and down the strings (top mainly) with my thumb nail before going back to f/style. I'm not sure how this would work with a thumb pick.
However I have ordered the recommended Fred Kelly and will certainly give it a go on the 12-er. (The guys on most videos I've watched seem to use a plectrum between thumb and finger for picking).
Because I pick the 3rd string usually with my index finger upwards (towards me), on the 12er this of course doesn't catch the octave G string; it will take a lot of practice to break a 30 year habit and pick this 'downwards' if you see what I mean so as to get the high G ringing on fingerstyle.
Thanks for the input.
John
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Post by ocarolan on Nov 19, 2016 17:58:43 GMT
John, some 12 string players reverse the two G strings in order to help the octave up predominate on finger upstrokes.
Some reverse the lower ones to make the octave less prominent on thumb downstrokes.
I wouldn't necessarily recommend either as a first step. The whole point about playing 12ers fingerstyle is to sound both strings of a pair, so you need to wiork at making sure you do, using your normal fingerstyle movements that you would use on a six string. Do keep plucking up with your fingers - if you try to do downstrokes you are likely to get into all sorts of confusion! Work at the angle your third finger plucks, and push through the 3rd string pair towards the 4th string pair with no hooky plucky uppy motion until you are clear of both strings. It can feel awkward but it works and soon becomes a habit. Depending on the person/finger/guitar you might find that just digging in a bit more firmly might do the job with little extra thought.
You should be able to find an action that works well for 12 and 6 with no real need for conscious adjustment.
I often mix strum and picky things in songs too. I find hybrid picking easiest for that, and whilst it hads to be said that strumming with a thumbpick isn't always easy, the Fred Kelly ones are the ones I do best with.
Actually if you do have a good thumbnail you might well find you can get both strings of a pair working well with a flat enough angle of attack, but try the thumbpick too.
Let us know how you're getting on!
Keith
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 19, 2016 19:06:55 GMT
John, some 12 string players reverse the two G strings in order to help the octave up predominate on finger upstrokes. Some reverse the lower ones to make the octave less prominent on thumb downstrokes. I wouldn't necessarily recommend either as a first step. The whole point about playing 12ers fingerstyle is to sound both strings of a pair, so you need to wiork at making sure you do, using your normal fingerstyle movements that you would use on a six string. Do keep plucking up with your fingers - if you try to do downstrokes you are likely to get into all sorts of confusion! Work at the angle your third finger plucks, and push through the 3rd string pair towards the 4th string pair with no hooky plucky uppy motion until you are clear of both strings. It can feel awkward but it works and soon becomes a habit. Depending on the person/finger/guitar you might find that just digging in a bit more firmly might do the job with little extra thought. You should be able to find an action that works well for 12 and 6 with no real need for conscious adjustment. I often mix strum and picky things in songs too. I find hybrid picking easiest for that, and whilst it hads to be said that strumming with a thumbpick isn't always easy, the Fred Kelly ones are the ones I do best with. Actually if you do have a good thumbnail you might well find you can get both strings of a pair working well with a flat enough angle of attack, but try the thumbpick too. Let us know how you're getting on! Keith There's a load of great and helpful advice there Keith, I really appreciate it! I don't like the idea of reversing strings (I tried this once before on an old 12er and found that the nut and saddle cut were different in the pair and thus the height of the pairs was awful when reversed. I'll try the thumb pick; and the thumb angle with just nail; I do tend to carry my thumb at 45 degree angle to the strings or more, so flattening it may help (I've read this somewhere else as well). I perhaps also need to grow the nail a bit more on that side to deal with the flatter angle. Or I could take up the piano .....
Thanks for all your help. I see an early workshop for Halifax 2017 coming up; an experts (not me!!!) 'panel' on fingerstyle; technique; picks; nails and angle; etc. Would be very interesting with some of the excellent players we have sharing their thoughts. With a 6 and 12 string option. I know some who go rarely do f/style so they might like it as well.
John
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Post by scorpiodog on Nov 20, 2016 13:56:25 GMT
John, I don't use a thumbpick at all, and I fingerpick a 12 string.
I do file my thumbnail assymetrically so it's got more bulk on the left. But I find that helps with 6 string as well.
I've never noticed a problem with the octave g. In fact I just had to grab my 12 string and play a couple of arpeggios to make sure I do sound it (and I do!).
But the thing about 12 strings is that you have to pick "through" the string. It's almost like aiming the nail at the upper string of the pair but starting low enough to catch the lower string.. It's not really a different movement from fingerpicking a 6 string, more like a broader stroke. And you do need to present your finger at right angles to the string.
I'm not sure whether this will help, but I hope it does. It's like everything else. It takes practice to get it right, but I have an idea that it will be easier for you to make the small change in your usual technique to cure your problems than to relearn thumb positioning that using a thumbpick demands.
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Post by leitrimnick on Nov 20, 2016 15:23:31 GMT
I use the same technique 6 and 12, Fred Kelly medium slick pick and bare fingers. The only real problem I've ever identified is that picking too hard can lead to unpleasant 'crashy' sort of sound on the 12. Sorry if that's a bit vague but I suspect other 12 players may well know what I mean. The lesson learned was back off, they're generally loud enough without digging in and sometimes it's more important to learn how to restrain that volume.
Generally, I find most new things (in my case most often a different tuning) come right if you just relax and let it happen over time. Impatience is only ever a hindrance.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 20, 2016 16:01:35 GMT
I use the same technique 6 and 12, Fred Kelly medium slick pick and bare fingers. The only real problem I've ever identified is that picking too hard can lead to unpleasant 'crashy' sort of sound on the 12. Sorry if that's a bit vague but I suspect other 12 players may well know what I mean. The lesson learned was back off, they're generally loud enough without digging in and sometimes it's more important to learn how to restrain that volume. Generally, I find most new things (in my case most often a different tuning) come right if you just relax and let it happen over time. Impatience is only ever a hindrance. Thanks for the sensible advice and the 'let it happen' bit makes sense; relax and don't push it.
So long as it doesn't clash with my recent decision not to buy green bananas!
J
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 20, 2016 16:05:50 GMT
John, I don't use a thumbpick at all, and I fingerpick a 12 string. I do file my thumbnail assymetrically so it's got more bulk on the left. But I find that helps with 6 string as well. I've never noticed a problem with the octave g. In fact I just had to grab my 12 string and play a couple of arpeggios to make sure I do sound it (and I do!). But the thing about 12 strings is that you have to pick "through" the string. It's almost like aiming the nail at the upper string of the pair but starting low enough to catch the lower string.. It's not really a different movement from fingerpicking a 6 string, more like a broader stroke. And you do need to present your finger at right angles to the string. I'm not sure whether this will help, but I hope it does. It's like everything else. It takes practice to get it right, but I have an idea that it will be easier for you to make the small change in your usual technique to cure your problems than to relearn thumb positioning that using a thumbpick demands. Thanks Paul, very helpful. I think I will have to work on the angle of both thumb and finger; I tend to be very upright to the strings when picking and it seems this may be part of the problem i.e. when picking down with the finger its the higher string that gets the attention all the time.
John
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Post by scorpiodog on Nov 20, 2016 23:13:50 GMT
The only real problem I've ever identified is that picking too hard can lead to unpleasant 'crashy' sort of sound on the 12. Sorry if that's a bit vague but I suspect other 12 players may well know what I mean.. I know exactly what you mean, Nick. I embrace that sort of grunt. I tune my 12 string down to standard intervals but B to B. It makes for really roary Leadbelly type playing. The 12 string gives you a whole new palette of sounds to play with.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Nov 21, 2016 12:29:59 GMT
Hi,
Here's a video I remember looking at quite a while ago, well before I bought my new 12-er. It's a comparison between 6 and 12 in 3 different styles; strum, flat pick and fingerstyle. On the latter, which starts at about 2 mins 20 secs, he appears to have almost exactly the same technique between the 6 and the 12; a pretty flat thumb action (no thumb pick) and fairly upright fingers. But, to highlight one of the issues I first raised here in my thread, I can't detect on his short piece on fingerstyling the 12-er any sound coming from the octave G string which would imply he is finding it difficult, like me, to get this note picked with a conventional technique?
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