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Post by vikingblues on Jan 29, 2017 12:01:38 GMT
I was reading the Winter Quarterly issue of Guitarist presents Acoustic magazine. An article by David Mead, talking to John Williams, caught my attention.
Particularly in something that I'd been thinking through recently, and found that what John Williams said tied in very well with it.
It's the method of teaching in western classical music that seems very common. You first have to learn all the notes and you learn to play them without mistakes. Then, and only then, you look at interpretation of the notes as a piece of music rather than as a technical exercise.
JW commented how this approach is such a rarity in music round the world and the usual is that natural music making unifies all aspects of the piece as you learn it from the start. He much favours the latter approach and I agree 100%. He mentions how the time taken to get to grips with purely the technical aspects before interpretation and enjoyment of the music can kick in can mean the soul dies.
I thought that's exactly what happened to me with classical lessons, and I wonder how many players give up due to this lack of early connection with the music. In my case the approach in lessons was that a piece was learned until the correct notes could be played - then, and immediately then, we would move on to the next piece.
There was one exception. At the same time as I was trying to 'learn the notes' of a particular piece I had been listening to a very fine interpretation under Claudio Abbado of Brahms German Requiem. The second movement having a beautifully finessed hushed quality combined with such a strong underlying pulse and gradual beautifully controlled rises and falls in tension.
Something of the mood and feeling of that interpretation jumped across to that piece I was trying to play and I studied it with extra intensity - as a result the playing of the piece became so much more musical and meant something to me other than just playing the right notes. The teacher seemed extra pleased with the result, but my explanation of what happened was met with indifference and no further discussion. It was then straight back to normal - let's try another piece and see how much more we can strain your fingers.
I have to admit to a certain resentment of lost opportunities and a lot of what seems like wasted time. My fault for not recognising what was happening and doing something about it. Too late now - I no longer have the fingers to play classical, and I don't think I've recovered from that death of my soul for that particular genre of playing.
I'm just thankful that in blues and modal improvisation and the on-line teachings of Hawkeye Herman and David Wallimann respectively I was able to reignite having joy in playing guitar. It did take me away from acoustic for a long time, but I feel it gave me a better preparation for steel string acoustic than if I'd come straight to it from classical.
Part of my enjoyment in my recent attempts at pieces of Celtic DADGAD music in Rob MacKillops book is that I have felt that I was able to bring interpretation to the pieces as soon as I started to try to play them - the result really is a feeling of creating 'music' as the learning progresses; of there being such a stronger musical presence to the end result.
Mark
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Jan 29, 2017 15:10:55 GMT
Quite a while after I'd been learning what was then called "folk" guitar, by way of books and records (John Pearse and Stefan Grossman primarily), I started a night school course in classical guitar. Most of my fellow students were total beginners, and the course quickly fell apart. People who didn't even know how to tune their newly acquired instruments didn't do their homework, and after two or three weeks the class folded as people stopped turning up. But I decided to carry on by taking fortnightly private lessons with the tutor.
After about three months I could just about sight read a classical exercise that, before the lessons, I could easily have played from tablature straight off. And I was fed up of being told that I had to have the guitar on my left knee, even though I found the position uncomfortable; needed my nails to be a certain shape; to hold my hand in a particular position, and so on. I was already playing fairly complicated ragtime tunes from tablature with the guitar on my right knee, my hand in a naturally comfortable position, my little finger occasionally being braced on the fingerboard, even - horror of horrors! - my left hand thumb being used to fret bass notes. I gave up the classical lessons.
It seems to me that what you're describing, Mark, is a generic formal approach used to teach people how to play. With some instruments, of course, just getting a clean note needs to be taught first - violin, reed instruments etc. Then you have to learn individual notes and where they appear on the stave, time and key signatures and so on, all the time plodding through the most boring and simplistic exercises, nursery rhymes etc. No wonder so many children, at first excited by the prospect, quickly become bored and give up.
The beauty of the guitar, and what makes it such a universally popular instrument, is that you don't have to do any (or at least, not much) of this. Get it in tune - easy enough nowadays, with electronic aids - and get through the slog of hardening up your fingertips, then figure out how to twist your left hand fingers into two or three chord shapes and you're away (if you can hold a plectrum - a skill that continues to evade me, 45+ years on!). I know plenty of people who, other than learning another seven or eight chords, have never moved beyond this level, but are quite happy going along to folk or guitar clubs and knocking out a few songs. And there's nothing wrong with that.
In the last ten years I've certainly found that learning some music theory has enhanced my playing, and particularly my writing, to a significant degree. But I still can't read the dots, except in the most laborious note by note fashion. In fact, I don't use tab anymore either. Learning by watching and listening is much more fun, and the theory knowledge really helps when trying to figure out, just from listening, what's going on in a piece of music. If I was 15 again, and starting over with the guitar, I'd largely avoid tab and go with this approach.
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 29, 2017 16:33:32 GMT
And I was fed up of being told that I had to have the guitar on my left knee, even though I found the position uncomfortable; needed my nails to be a certain shape; to hold my hand in a particular position, and so on. Another point that John Williams had in that interview was that he felt dogma should not be applied to right hand position. I can't say I'm surprised to hear about your experience of the dogmatic classical teaching approach Richard. It seems that there is an attempt to enforce that being able to interpret is reserved only for those with high technical skills. Regarding the very early stages of playing involving the need to find notes on the fretboard etc, then that can be seen as developing the knowledge to try to play a piece of music, so interpretation is not applicable yet. But to start lessons and find I was comfortably self-taught at about Grade 3-4, I would have hoped there would be something more about playing music in the lessons and not just playing notes. Mark
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missclarktree
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 29, 2017 18:59:09 GMT
I had a similar experience of memorizing notes without musicality, but I can't entirely blame my teacher. In fact, he did try to encourage musical expression right from the start, but I found that finding the notes was so difficult in those early stages that I didn't have any brain space left to think about musicality.
Once I'd got onto Carcassi and the dreaded Sor studies I did experience these as musical, but although it was in my mind I mostly failed to transmit it to my fingers because of the technical difficulty.
Encountering flamenco and steel-string as played by the Respectable Gentleman, I realised that I lacked any sense of connections between notes. To transcribe from Youtube meant painstakingly listening for every individual note and writing it down. I had no knowledge of chords or keys. It was like speaking a language by uttering separate letters of the alphabet instead of grouping them into words and phrases. Flamenco has helped massively with that. Also I was extremely inhibited in my playing, and flamenco has helped me to overcome that.
I don't regret having classical lessons. if I were starting afresh I would still have them, but would work through Justin Sandercoe's course at the same time. I like his systematic approach, although I don't know whether it would help with musicality. I've been a late developer in that department, and can't really blame the teaching method.
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Post by creamburmese on Jan 30, 2017 15:38:41 GMT
I'm one of the few here, perhaps, who is still entrenched in the world of classical lessons. However I wonder if it has changed or if it's just a more relaxed approach that American teachers take to teaching adults to play? My teacher has emphasized musicality from the start, something that intensely annoyed me initially when I was just struggling to fret the notes in some semblance of a tune. Also the majority of pieces I have learned, even at my elementary level, are not from the classical guitar 'methods' but pieces I heard and really wanted to be able to play, subject to teacher approval (there were some he rejected, or at least made me wait!) It's only recently that I had my first SORe piece ( I wonder if that should be spelled differently ) and that was when I insisted he provide material that would enhance my technical abilities. I also subscribe to an online forum/lesson series run by Simon Powis and even at the very earliest stages in his lessons the musicality is emphasized. Yesterday I plucked up courage and played at an online masterclass with that group (the sound quality was crap so I was secure in the knowledge that he couldn't tell how badly I was screwing up) and again the emphasis and feedback was all about the musicality. Admittedly classical music is never going to be as catchy as ragtime or blues, but it must have something going for it having endured so long! I haven't abandoned to my original intention, which is that I will use my classical guitar skills for fingerstyle playing when I get good enough, or give up on classical!
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Jan 30, 2017 16:28:23 GMT
Neither the classical lessons I had, nor the tab books I originally used, made any mention of musicality. In fact it was only when I started going to workshops, master classes and so on that it became obvious that what I'd been doing was akin to painting by numbers - teaching my hands to make certain movements which resulted in a tune of sorts coming out. A kind of human piano roll, transferred to the guitar. Now, when I teach, I emphasise musicality from the start. It's one thing being able to "execute" a tune, another thing entirely to make it sound like music. Just wish I'd learned that a lot earlier!
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Post by creamburmese on Jan 30, 2017 19:33:18 GMT
Now, when I teach, I emphasise musicality from the start. It's one thing being able to "execute" a tune, another thing entirely to make it sound like music. Just wish I'd learned that a lot earlier! You must be a sought after teacher I think!
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 30, 2017 20:53:35 GMT
Neither the classical lessons I had, nor the tab books I originally used, made any mention of musicality. In fact it was only when I started going to workshops, master classes and so on that it became obvious that what I'd been doing was akin to painting by numbers - teaching my hands to make certain movements which resulted in a tune of sorts coming out. A kind of human piano roll, transferred to the guitar. Now, when I teach, I emphasise musicality from the start. It's one thing being able to "execute" a tune, another thing entirely to make it sound like music. Just wish I'd learned that a lot earlier! Your pupils are on a good thing - I hope they realise how lucky they are! Yes ..... "Just wish I'd learned that earlier". Absolutely me too!!! Mark
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Riverman
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Post by Riverman on Jan 30, 2017 22:23:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 11:14:28 GMT
I know plenty of people who, other than learning another seven or eight chords, have never moved beyond this level, but are quite happy going along to folk or guitar clubs and knocking out a few songs. And there's nothing wrong with that. This sums me up at this present moment. But I can't seem to progress and play stuff that I would really like to play better. Alternative tuning is a mystery to me which is probably one of the main reasons why I can't play stuff like Celtic or Bluegrass. Knocking out Johnny Cash/Roy Orbison songs is OK. ...but I crave some diversity.
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Post by ocarolan on Feb 22, 2017 11:17:34 GMT
I know plenty of people who, other than learning another seven or eight chords, have never moved beyond this level, but are quite happy going along to folk or guitar clubs and knocking out a few songs. And there's nothing wrong with that. This sums me up at this present moment. But I can't seem to progress and play stuff that I would really like to play better. Alternative tuning is a mystery to me which is probably one of the main reasons why I can't play stuff like Celtic or Bluegrass. Knocking out Johnny Cash/Roy Orbison songs is OK. ...but I crave some diversity. There's plenty of diversity to be had without having to resort to putting those tuning buttons in unnatural places, Stan! Keith
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