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Post by theinvisibleman on Oct 4, 2017 10:19:49 GMT
I haven't often had a classical guitar but my current one feels like a keeper, a Santos Martinez. They are silly money for solid spruce & solid rosewood. I play it quite quietly at present and with lower than usual action for a nylon string guitar, 3mm/2.75mm. I am hearing what I've identified as a sweeping sound as the flesh of the thumb contacts the string just before the nail does. I had thought that fingerpicking with some contact from flesh and nail gave a richer sound than just nail, but maybe things are different for nylon? My nail length has been fine for steel string guitars also but maybe longer nails are necessary to avoid the little sweeping sound? And therefore it should just be played with nails? My fingernails are about 1.5mm and my thumbnail 2mm, though it has just been filed back from 3mm. Too short still? It occurred to me also that louder, firmer playing might drown out the sweeping sound. I'm not after learning classical guitar properly, and this guitar is tuned to open D Flat (Db Ab Db F Bb Db) almost always, but I would like to at least get this issue straight. Thanks.
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Post by jangarrack on Oct 4, 2017 11:18:02 GMT
I'm not sure if my experience reflects your issue or not, but it might be helpful. I used to play with fairly long nails, but eventually found that for both steel and nylon strings, I get the best results by trimming my fingernails so that they show just above the tops of the fingers looking at them from the palm side of the hand which I think results in hitting the string with a combination of flesh and nail. I find that using only my thumb nail gives a thin sound on steel and horrible scratchy sound on nylon, not at all like finger nails. I guess the difference in sound is probably down to poor technique on my part, but for picking with the thumb when I am not using a thumb pick, flesh works much better for me on both. For that reason, I trim my thumbnail just about flush with the top of the thumb, which just allows me to pick with flesh and just catch the nail on the string at the same time for a slightly different sound when I want to. I also always use a glass file on all my nails, which I have found makes a world of difference. All that effort and I still sound rubbish.
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missclarktree
C.O.G.
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Post by missclarktree on Oct 7, 2017 17:32:00 GMT
I've come across all sorts of advice about nail length and shape, but I think it's got to be trial and error due to individual variations in nail angles in relation to the strings.
Does this not happen when you play steel strings, and do you use the classical classical position?
I've noticed a lot of steel string players make a sweeping sound, like the sound of fingers or nails sliding down the strings a little bit before it is plucked. This occurs when their fingers are at a 'flat' angle to the strings, i.e. not at right-angles. Classical players usually make subtle changes in nail angle to achieve different tones, but they don't usually have their arms on as much of a slope as is usually seen in steel string guitarists.
When the flesh hits at a right angle, as is more usual in flamenco, it can cause a clicking sound as the string flicks from the flesh to the nail. That sounds like the opposite to your problem.
Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I can only suggest experimenting with the angle of your arm and fingers, and with nail shape and length.
PS Here's an example of what I think you might mean, by John Renbourne. It's particularly noticeable at about 33 sec. where he plucks three chords. It's on a steel string guitar but is this the sort of noise you mean? If so, I think it's caused by a too-shallow angle (not that I know anything about anything)
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Post by theinvisibleman on Oct 7, 2017 20:26:17 GMT
Thanks for the helpful responses. I think I could hear it in the Renbourn clip, yes, though it's hard to tell when someone's playing an actual tune whether it isn't noise from the other hand and the strings. To me it is definitely a louder noise with the nylon string - I hadn't noticed it or been annoyed by it before. A lot of us seem to like some of the noises an acoustic instrument makes but I certainly wouldn't want to leave bad technique unattended if that's what it transpires to be.
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Post by creamburmese on Oct 10, 2017 17:36:47 GMT
Hi there - it sounds like you have the typical sound that Alison mentions from striking the bass (wound) strings at an angle and the nail or thumb? scraping over the windings... I'm not sure it's a function of a too short nail - most classical guitarists have a very long thumbnail to enable them to reach the string while the hand/wrist is in the typical slightly arched position. It's more likely to be because you are using acoustic technique with a flat wrist. Classical guitarists aim for first contact with the string with both flesh and nail together, thus muting any "click" from the nail, and the string then slides along and off the nail smoothly... in the classical position the thumb attack is pretty much perpendicular to the string, so it doesn't move along the string - so no extraneous noise - in contrast, when the fingers are used to pluck the bass strings, they are usually at an angle and they do sweep along the string and produce that scrapy sound such as you describe. Good classic players actually turn their hand to be more perpendicular to the string when plucking the bass strings with fingers to avoid that noise. Needless to say I am not a good player. Anyway try arching the wrist slightly so that the thumb doesn't move along the string when it plucks and tell us if it works! ... here is more info right hand positionJulie
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Post by vikingblues on Oct 10, 2017 18:53:09 GMT
Good video Julie - the use of the camera held to give the players eye view of the right hand is a great idea. Mark
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Post by theinvisibleman on Oct 10, 2017 21:02:45 GMT
Great, that post, video and clicking a few links from there were a bit of an investment I think. (That fella's action looked about 5mm though. Eek.)
Thanks.
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,319
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Post by colins on Oct 10, 2017 21:55:45 GMT
Julie, creamburmese is spot on. An absolutely text book post, probably the best post I've seen on any forum, ever!
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Post by creamburmese on Oct 11, 2017 0:12:03 GMT
Thanks Colins - please note I'll swap posts for a miniscule amount of your playing Genius any day! Julie
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