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Post by ukpacker on Sept 2, 2018 11:01:34 GMT
Hello everyone manufacturers like Martin and Larrivee sell all solid guitars at around £1000, they also sell guitars made of the same woods for twice that price or more made from the same woods, my question is do the more expensive guitars use better sounding wood or are the differences merely cosmetic? Cheers all.
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Post by Onechordtrick on Sept 2, 2018 11:08:23 GMT
There was a similar thread at Mandolin Cafe recently. One view was that above a certain price point you’re paying for cosmetics such as ore complex binding etc.. I’d imagine that it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.
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Post by walrus on Sept 2, 2018 11:42:51 GMT
G’day
My understanding is that wood is graded for quality. Just like an exam, some of us are thicker than others, or maybe ‘denser’ is a better word.
Makes sense I suppose, the better quality the wood, the more it costs. Like a good wine, age must play it’s part. Of course aesthetic is important, people will pay more for a beautiful piece of wood, but that doesn’t mean it will sound better.
Some guys know their woods, Robert Godin, George Lowdown and Jean Larivee are all considered experts when it comes to wood, supposedly other luthiers get advice from these guys.....but then again all luthiers need to know their woods I suppose.
It could be an elaborate way of getting a few extra bucks for wood and wire, but I believe in this one, all woods are created equal, but some woods are more equal than others.
Coo Coo Ca Choo
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Post by ukpacker on Sept 2, 2018 12:09:35 GMT
hi Onechordtrick,
I have looked for the thread on Mandolin Cafe but can't find it, any chance of a link or board name please? Thanks.
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Post by Onechordtrick on Sept 2, 2018 12:44:09 GMT
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Post by grayn on Sept 2, 2018 15:33:35 GMT
Ignoring cosmetics for a moment, there are so many variables in making a guitar, other than just the woods used.
Bracing, glues, neck joints, angles etc etc etc.
I think the makers reputation will often determine the price of the guitar.
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Post by ukpacker on Sept 2, 2018 16:22:02 GMT
Took me me a while to find and I knew what I was looking for 
Thanks for taking the time, glad i don't play mandolin those prices are eye watering.
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Post by Onechordtrick on Sept 2, 2018 16:40:59 GMT
Took me me a while to find and I knew what I was looking for
Thanks for taking the time, glad i don't play mandolin those prices are eye watering.
No problem. It is possible to get a great sounding mandolin at far less than this evening prices, but accepted wisdom seems to be that you need to pay twice as much for a mandolin as for a guitar to get a similar level of quality. Also f style mandolins are more expensive than a comparable a style because of the extra work involved. |
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Akquarius
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Post by Akquarius on Sept 2, 2018 18:37:00 GMT
"..." I think the makers reputation will often determine the price of the guitar. +1 to that. ofcourse, a reputation has a reason. Allthough I'm not sure if even the best reputation justifies any price. |
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Sept 2, 2018 18:39:47 GMT
Hello everyone manufacturers like Martin and Larrivee sell all solid guitars at around £1000, they also sell guitars made of the same woods for twice that price or more made from the same woods, my question is do the more expensive guitars use better sounding wood or are the differences merely cosmetic? Cheers all.
Generally it will be better quality wood although that doesn't necessarily mean better sound. Better quality might mean straighter or closer grain, or else something with unusual figuring. (I think some of the Martins under £1K don't have solid wood back and sides actually?) When a builder uses the better quality wood they might often add more expensive or time-consuming appointments - purfling, or better tuners (again, better might mean they work better, or might mean they are gold-plated or something. Or both!) In a factory, the higher price guitars might get more attention from the more skilled workers, so again you might expect them to have a better finish, or sound, or setup etc. Bit of both/everything then! |
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Post by nkforster on Sept 12, 2018 22:27:55 GMT
The price of a guitar is based on supply and demand. The demand is based on a lot of things... Nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com |
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Post by dreadnought28 on Sept 13, 2018 1:55:44 GMT
Ignoring cosmetics for a moment, there are so many variables in making a guitar, other than just the woods used. Bracing, glues, neck joints, angles etc etc etc. I think the makers reputation will often determine the price of the guitar. A reputation built on the luthiers skills. I have a a collection of hand built acoustic guitars that are all quite valuable. Several have replacement values well into 5 figures. None of my guitars have expensive tuners, the majority have either Gotoh 510s or Waverleys. Almost all have either no inlays in the soundboard or a bare minimum with nothing remotely blingy. I pay for the skills of the luthier in choosing woods and then knowing exactly how to put the thing together so it is mind blowingly wonderful to my ear. After 53 plus years of guitar playing and over 100 guitars I’m not daft enough to buy something for anything other than sound, allied to fixed items, scale length, neck width, body size etc. I do not consider snob value except where I move a guitar on and make some money on it. If a luthier with a high reputation only builds a handful of guitars every year then the value will be high. I have a Romero banjo on order. By banjo standards it will be expensive at around $4000. Jason Romero builds around 25 banjos a year, I will wait 5 years for mine from the date my order was accepted. As far as I’m concerned the cost and the wait will be worth it as I know how wonderful Jason’s instruments are. That’s what I’m paying for. |
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Post by andyhowell on Sept 13, 2018 8:53:07 GMT
Graded woods can make a difference I suspect especially with tops - you’ve seen people looking for good tap tones and searching for stiffer tops. Cheaper guitars with solid tops have tops that are often more flexible or not as stiff.
However, beyond this other factors take over. Has been said a lot of inlay work of complicated rosettes/binding will take more time and therefore will cost more. Like Chris/Dreadnaught I am not into bling myself.
And then there is simply the demand for a top luthier guitar or even a more fully featured production model.
The breakthrough moment in pricing seems to be when James Taylor started using Olson guitars. Players sought out second hand Olson guitars and the second hand pricing rocketed to the point that they massively out priced his own pricing. I believe he stopped taking order for a year or so and then reopened his list with prices that reflected the used market.
It is not uncommon for luthiers to close their lists for a while. A work alone luthier can only produce so many models. A boutique company such as Santa Cruz can only produce a few thousand and it is much the same for Martin’s custom shop.
So, I think the answer is that to a point you can expect higher grade woods to be used. But beyond a certain point - as Nigel says - lots of other factors come into play, not at least fashion !!!
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
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Post by davewhite on Sept 13, 2018 11:06:04 GMT
Cheaper guitars with solid tops have tops that are often more flexible or not as stiff. I'd love to see the study and data that showed that result Andy.  |
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Post by nkforster on Sept 13, 2018 11:25:31 GMT
It is not uncommon for luthiers to close their lists for a while. A work alone luthier can only produce so many models. The main reason why luthiers "close" their list is marketing. Occasionally it might be because of ill health. But usually, they want the word to "get out" that they've closed their list. This helps increase demand. It's a marketing ploy. If a maker wants to limit their list (the demand), all they have to do is increase their prices until demand slows down. Or go on holiday for 6 months (limit supply.) There is never any need to close a list unless they want a bit of free publicity. When you close a list, hopefully, the forums crackle with excitement...If not, you sheepishly have to announce that the list is open again.A long list implies your work is great. It's what's known as "social proof." It's the reason why no one wants to eat in an empty restaurant. No one wants to be the only person in a waiting list. A long list implies your work is great. It's what's known as "social proof." Social proof is the reason why no one wants to eat in an empty restaurant. No one wants to be the only person in a waiting list. Folks, it's all about supply and demand. And marketing/branding is about creating the demand. It's not just about making good guitars sadly. As for the quality of wood - that's a very difficult thing to pin down. But from what I've seen, a lot of the newer makers use very fancy woods. They often use what is visually "superior" woods. That's nice if you're buying with your eyes and not necessarily much use if you buy with your ears. It's a shame for the makers who do this as they end up going broke, shelling out a lot of money for what is touted as "Master grade." The thing is, you can't tell how a piece of wood will sing from how it looks. One of the best guitars I ever played was a Froggy Bottom, the soundboard looked terrible. Pin knots, sawn off the quarter, and plain old fugly. But the lads who made the guitar knew how to select spruce for tone, not looks. Nigel www.nkforsterguitars.com |
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Jo whoever he is.
