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Post by andyhowell on Sept 5, 2018 6:50:53 GMT
Talk to Phil Taylor. You might have to up your budget a little. Have a look at Eric Skye’s Santa Cruz. While well outside of your budget range he gets more tension through a number of design innovations rather than scale length.
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Post by ukpacker on Sept 5, 2018 10:07:54 GMT
It was suggested by one of your regular contributors to the forum that I post this here. I’m currently doing some research on 000 12 fretters with a view to buying a decent one in the future that can handle drop tunings as low as CGCDFCD. I have a Recording King ROS 626 which is great for throwing in the car for holidays etc but could do with a better 12 fret instrument for home and recording comparable to my Martin 000 18 [14 fret). Any ideas/advice especially on minimum scale length for dropped tunings? I play mainly folk fingerstyle
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Sept 7, 2018 15:48:32 GMT
It was suggested by one of your regular contributors to the forum that I post this here. I’m currently doing some research on 000 12 fretters with a view to buying a decent one in the future that can handle drop tunings as low as CGCDFCD. I have a Recording King ROS 626 which is great for throwing in the car for holidays etc but could do with a better 12 fret instrument for home and recording comparable to my Martin 000 18 [14 fret). Any ideas/advice especially on minimum scale length for dropped tunings? I play mainly folk fingerstyle i.e. Martin Simpson, some O’Carolan pieces, James Taylor etc. I’ve always fancied a rich and warm sounding 12 fretter, but sadly cannot afford a 000 Kelday Tony McManus! Recommendations therefore welcome. Thanks, Pete. Hi Peter As others have said I play in tunings dropped as low a C with 630mm scale length guitars and manage ok but I have a light touch. Having said that, if you can manage with a 650mm scale, and I know I definitely can't, then why not go with 650mm for that bit more tension at low tunings? I don't know for sure but I would bet that the 12 fret neck is likely to be the main contributing factor to 12 fretters being known for producing a rich and warm sound rather than the scale length. Cheers Phil
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petef
Strummer
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My main instrument is: Northworthy Ellastone Custom Rio
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Post by petef on Sept 7, 2018 17:29:26 GMT
Hi Phil, I was hoping you’d post. Good to hear from you. You’ll be pleased to know that I’m enjoying playing the Martin 000-18. Again, thanks for the pleasant transaction. Not sure about the 650 mm scale (small hands). I’d certainly have to try one. Interesting point about the 12 fret neck being the main contributor to a 12 fretter sound. I phoned Brook today enquiring about a Lyn with a slightly longer scale length. Andy said they could make one slightly over 632mm (just under 24.9 inch). Asking for an extra 2mm sounds really nerdy! I noticed a Lyn on their News page just under Steve Tilson’s Calder. This one made with Engelmann top/Madagascar Rosewood and pyramid bridge. It’s based on a Martin style (cost just under £3000]. Not fussed about celluloid bindings and inlays so should be less. Love the woods. However, build time is around a year. How long did yours take? All the best, Pete
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Welshruss
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My main instrument is: Turnstone, Wandering Boy & Santa Cruz
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Post by Welshruss on Sept 8, 2018 1:30:20 GMT
I have four 00’s I keep two in CGCGCE a 12 fret Bashkin 25.4 scale and a 14 fret Waterloo WL14 24.9 scale. I also have two other 12 fret 00s a Santa Cruz and a Waterloo WL K. Have you tried a Waterloo by Collings? There are a number of 12 fretters in their range. Since getting my Waterloo’s I have sold off a lot of more expensive guitars as these are better. My Santa Cruz was a very lucky 2nd hand cheap eBay purchase.
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Sept 8, 2018 9:25:45 GMT
Hi Phil, I was hoping you’d post. Good to hear from you. You’ll be pleased to know that I’m enjoying playing the Martin 000-18. Again, thanks for the pleasant transaction. Not sure about the 650 mm scale (small hands). I’d certainly have to try one. Interesting point about the 12 fret neck being the main contributor to a 12 fretter sound. I phoned Brook today enquiring about a Lyn with a slightly longer scale length. Andy said they could make one slightly over 632mm (just under 24.9 inch). Asking for an extra 2mm sounds really nerdy! I noticed a Lyn on their News page just under Steve Tilson’s Calder. This one made with Engelmann top/Madagascar Rosewood and pyramid bridge. It’s based on a Martin style (cost just under £3000]. Not fussed about celluloid bindings and inlays so should be less. Love the woods. However, build time is around a year. How long did yours take? All the best, Pete I waited 9 months but that was 5 years ago. It was 10 months when I spoke to them in July and I do know they are very busy at the moment but I believe that is still quite a reasonable waiting time. I understand other builders have much longer waiting times Phil
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Post by ukpacker on Sept 9, 2018 16:50:59 GMT
It was suggested by one of your regular contributors to the forum that I post this here. I’m currently doing some research on 000 12 fretters with a view to buying a decent one in the future that can handle drop tunings as low as CGCDFCD. I have a Recording King ROS 626 which is great for throwing in the car for holidays etc but could do with a better 12 fret instrument for home and recording comparable to my Martin 000 18 [14 fret). Any ideas/advice especially on minimum scale length for dropped tunings? I play mainly folk fingerstyle i.e. Martin Simpson, some O’Carolan pieces, James Taylor etc. I’ve always fancied a rich and warm sounding 12 fretter, but sadly cannot afford a 000 Kelday Tony McManus! Recommendations therefore welcome. Thanks, Pete. I don't know for sure but I would bet that the 12 fret neck is likely to be the main contributing factor to 12 fretters being known for producing a rich and warm sound rather than the scale length. I do not believe it's the neck which makes the difference, the neck on a 12 fret is the same as the neck on a 14 fret, the body is longer by two frets which puts the bridge in a different place relative to the sound hole.
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Phil Taylor
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Post by Phil Taylor on Sept 9, 2018 23:40:44 GMT
I don't know for sure but I would bet that the 12 fret neck is likely to be the main contributing factor to 12 fretters being known for producing a rich and warm sound rather than the scale length. I do not believe it's the neck which makes the difference, the neck on a 12 fret is the same as the neck on a 14 fret, the body is longer by two frets which puts the bridge in a different place relative to the sound hole. Yes, I'm fully aware that it's not the actual 12 fret neck that makes the difference to the sound and that it's the bridge position being in the so called 'sweet spot' that does it. However, having re-read the sentence I wrote I can see why you think I may have not know this fact. Cheers Phil
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 5:47:47 GMT
I do not believe it's the neck which makes the difference, the neck on a 12 fret is the same as the neck on a 14 fret, the body is longer by two frets which puts the bridge in a different place relative to the sound hole. Yes, I'm fully aware that it's not the actual 12 fret neck that makes the difference to the sound and that it's the bridge position being in the so called 'sweet spot' that does it. However, having re-read the sentence I wrote I can see why you think I may have not know this fact. Cheers Phil I can concur with Phil’s statement- i’ve Owned a lot of 12 fretters, and borrowing two at the moment. They have always been warmer than an equivalent (or near equivalent) 14 fretter. Maybe it’s the break angle at the headstock being greater, or as Phil says the bridge being in a different position on the top. What I can say is that I don’t believe scale length plays too important a role either. Robbie
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Post by gavdav on Sept 19, 2018 12:40:38 GMT
I also play a 12 fret guitar in CGCGCD (sometimes CGDGCD of CGCFCD) though mine has a cutaway, and I think I might struggle without it. I was very lucky to pick up a used Forster, but a £2000 budget could see you clear to a lot of used luthier made instruments - 12 frets are scarcer though - There's a 12 fret Pat Foster opus for sale here by oustudent that would be a very good buy for your budget. Also see the classifieds on this site.
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Post by gavdav on Sept 19, 2018 12:41:39 GMT
I should also add, I've had no problems tuning down to C with standard strings on a 629mm scale, though I now favour a slightly longer scale.
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