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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 7, 2016 8:06:35 GMT
There are a whole bunch of people who frankly should not be allowed out of their abodes armed with a musical instrument of any description, along of course with the mandatory stand and sheet lyrics. Then there is the street poet who turns up at the last moment and, minutes before his/her performance, is seen still scribbling frantically the last wailing stanzas of the nightmare that awaits the rest of us. That's why I don't play out... not because I hate those performers - but because I am one There's room in the world for everyone and players of all standards. Thankfully my local club (which is always full and unplugged) welcomes, encourages and applauds those who are less capable but are trying. As I've said on this forum before, some people have tremendous difficulty in retaining lyrics (particularly when nervous) and need a comfort blanket. The important thing is that they are trying. Long live the tryers.
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Wild Violet
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Post by Wild Violet on Oct 7, 2016 8:14:39 GMT
Folk clubs are alive and well in my part of Lincolnshire, and colan runs one of the very best I've ever been to. The "folk club" format here is a main guest with floor singers to open and again during the interval. The main guests are usually well-known people on the UK festival/club circuit, and it's wonderful to see them in such an intimate setting. Maybe we are unusually fortunate, but most of the floor singers around here are fantastic. Some of them aren't, but we appreciate them all the same - we all know that it's an important opportunity for the less-experienced to be able to play in front of an encouraging audience. Not so long ago I needed 5 pints in me before getting up and shakily performing as a floor singer, and I will be forever grateful that I had the chance to do it in such a welcoming environment. Singarounds/song circles and sessions are completely different to folk clubs, though we have plenty of them as well. There was a time when I was the youngest person attending both, but over the last few years there has been new, younger blood walking through the doors. The main guests are getting younger, too. The older folks still outnumber the young ones probably 15:1, but it gives me hope that the folk clubs around here will not die out anytime soon.
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Post by lavaman on Oct 7, 2016 8:55:57 GMT
Interesting thread scorpiodog I started off in my teens in the 1960s in a proper folk club - upstairs room in a pub, no amplification, people listened, pro guest most weeks supported by regulars, floor singers only approx once a month. It was a very supportive place in which to take those first uncertain steps in public performance. Keith I think Keith makes a very important observation. Nowadays it tends to be pro guests once a month and floor singers every week. As others have commented floor singers have very mixed abilities so a casual visitor to the club is unlikely to be impressed. To survive, Folk Clubs need to provide better quality entertainment to compete with other sources of entertainment. Also, Folk Clubs are 'clubs' where by and large the same people come every week and get to know each other. The casual visitor can be put off by this. Having said all this, Folk Clubs are still a good forum to develop your musicianship and performance skills in a sympathetic environment.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 7, 2016 10:03:41 GMT
My local club has made an attempt to bring income bigger and younger names and occasionally they get a big influx of young people. But I don't think that format works any more. The top folk club acts are not cheap to go and see. I can go and see many of the same people at places without raffles and crappy old residents.
Keith makes a very good point about the way clubs used to encourage and foster new talent. There are still some places around like that.
Near me the Open Mic is a biota a mixed blessing. There are some people that put time into it and it works well — they focus on people doing longer spots who they know are OK. They maybe mix this with shorter spots earlier on for newbies.
However, the others! There is a growing line of people running Open Mics for money near me. Some guy with a PA getting paid by a pub to bring people in and doing three or four pubs a week. I have nothing in principle against this but I'd be happier if they really put some time and thought into it.
I occasionally play at one of these where I will often have 30 minutes or so. But I have to sit through the old bastards with music stands (they are usually old), people playing keyboards with synthetic drums and singing Goodness knows what) and too many other horrible things to even share.
We do need people to think about the format and put some love into it. And some thought. Do we need all these PAs?
Apart from the occasional sessions I organise, I can think of only one place near me that has it right. This is a Little Theatre that runs a session in the bar. There is amplification but only background stuff that lifts things a little. The mics are ambient and can hardly be noticed. There is a mix of thos playing for the first time and old lags;there are young and old. Trouble is this only runs 3 times a year!
I'm with Chris. Ban the damn music stands.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 7, 2016 11:00:19 GMT
My local club has made an attempt to bring income bigger and younger names and occasionally they get a big influx of young people. But I don't think that format works any more. The top folk club acts are not cheap to go and see. I can go and see many of the same people at places without raffles and crappy old residents. Keith makes a very good point about the way clubs used to encourage and foster new talent. There are still some places around like that. Near me the Open Mic is a biota a mixed blessing. There are some people that put time into it and it works well — they focus on people doing longer spots who they know are OK. They maybe mix this with shorter spots earlier on for newbies. However, the others! There is a growing line of people running Open Mics for money near me. Some guy with a PA getting paid by a pub to bring people in and doing three or four pubs a week. I have nothing in principle against this but I'd be happier if they really put some time and thought into it. I occasionally play at one of these where I will often have 30 minutes or so. But I have to sit through the old bastards with music stands (they are usually old), people playing keyboards with synthetic drums and singing Goodness knows what) and too many other horrible things to even share. We do need people to think about the format and put some love into it. And some thought. Do we need all these PAs? Apart from the occasional sessions I organise, I can think of only one place near me that has it right. This is a Little Theatre that runs a session in the bar. There is amplification but only background stuff that lifts things a little. The mics are ambient and can hardly be noticed. There is a mix of thos playing for the first time and old lags;there are young and old. Trouble is this only runs 3 times a year! I'm with Chris. Ban the damn music stands. Oh Dear. I hadn't realised that I was one of the prime causes of the demise of Folk Clubs. Looks like I better just stay at home and play to the dog..... Or only venture out when there are proper people playing who are younger than me, don't suffer from memory loss and haven't become crappy old residents. Must re-check those air fares to Austria....
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Post by ourmaninthenorth on Oct 7, 2016 11:04:19 GMT
Yet again I find myself at odds with the prevailing wind.
One sure and certain consequence of telling me I can't do something is that I'll do just that, not only musically, but also in life. I long ago crossed the Rubicon of other people's approval being of any importance. Arrogance? Not a bit of it, more like experience. I am myself, who else can I be?
How a musician chooses to narrate themselves on any instrument, in any setting is entirely up to them. I choose to lone wolf it, zero interest in performing, less than zero interest in playing with others, even less interest in following somebody else's star. Rather than closing my mind, it's actually opened it up.
Every single time I pick a guitar up I make music, I rarely fail to start a private conversation with myself..I've been doing this for 4 decades. Hundreds of times in conversation over the years I've heard " you can't do that"...." you're doing it wrong"...."what you need is..." I laugh it all to scorn. I'll do my own thing, always have, always will. I can say with absolute certainty that I'm the best guitar player in my house...
In this post modern world everything seems to be a competition, who can piss higher; it preys on the vulnerabilities of us all...makes us feel less than, never quite good enough. Music is, and will remain, my antedote. I can get a tune out of a biscuit tin with a string on it, sorry if that offends the 10 grand headstockers, but I can.
What the bloody hell am I talking about you ask?
Well, is there a future for ..... ? ( insert your own genre ) - yes, if each person playing and loving that music keeps the lights on in their own heart.
Don't forget there is a person standing behind that guitar, and music stand, and piss poor voice, et al...one with something to say.
Yeats had it right - tread carefully on other people's dreams.
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 7, 2016 11:09:48 GMT
fatfingerjohn - I'd happily listen to you John, with or without your music stand, wherever you chose to play and sing. Keith
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 7, 2016 11:14:06 GMT
fatfingerjohn - I'd happily listen to you John, with or without your music stand, wherever you chose to play and sing. Keith Thanks Keith; even if it's your music stand??
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 7, 2016 11:17:58 GMT
................................ Well, is there a future for ..... ? ( insert your own genre ) - yes, if each person playing and loving that music keeps the lights on in their own heart. Don't forget there is a person standing behind that guitar, and music stand, and piss poor voice, et al...one with something to say. Yeats had it right - tread carefully on other people's dreams. Spot on. I remember a song competition on BBC TV a very long time ago (?1960s?)- watching it I was struck by a song based on that peom by Yeats and blagged it right away - I can remember the choon and chords, but must look out the words, which I was able to scribble out as the song was on several weeks running. Thanks for the reminder ourmaninthenorth . Keith
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 7, 2016 11:19:26 GMT
fatfingerjohn - I'd happily listen to you John, with or without your music stand, wherever you chose to play and sing. Keith Thanks Keith; even if it's your music stand?? Yup - happy to lend it out when I'm not using it. Keith
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 7, 2016 11:37:43 GMT
Ah, the music stand debate!
I have very mixed views on music stands. I use one because it is a convenient place to hold my set list (if I'm doing a gig) and my instructions on when and where to put a capo on (which I often forget). It's also a useful place to hang a banner and our Bose Tonematch is attached to ours (you can't see it behind the banner and it looks much neater).
If I'm playing at a folk club, I won't normally use one, but I'm rarely playing more than 3 or 4 songs, so I can write the set list on my hand.
But the little club that I run welcomes people of all abilities and stages of musical development, and I certainly wouldn't ban them, because, for some people they are a useful support. It's also useful to try out new material on people you know at an early stage and sometimes that involves playing something you haven't yet committed to memory.
I think the problem with them is that it's hard to put on a show if you're reading words/music/chords. You can't interact with the audience properly if you're reading, so the song cannot come out as a polished and well thought out interpretation.
As for the wider issues exposed by this discussion, there have been some really interesting comments so far. But I'm getting the impression that most posts (with some encouraging exceptions) agree that folk clubs aren't what they were.
Would that because we are nostalgic, or wear rose tinted specs when remembering our youth, or should we all be consigned to the COG status? I hear a lot about the Folk Revival, and there are many amazing young musicians achieving recognition as professionals. But where do they cut their teeth? There must be some folk clubs where young people are the norm and not the exception. But where are they?
How would one go about trying to create a folk club where the young mix with the aged? Does anyone have any ideas?
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Post by dobro on Oct 7, 2016 11:57:34 GMT
I don't think a music stand or not make a big difference. But the person BEHIND the music stand do.
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Post by ourmaninthenorth on Oct 7, 2016 12:46:08 GMT
................................ Well, is there a future for ..... ? ( insert your own genre ) - yes, if each person playing and loving that music keeps the lights on in their own heart. Don't forget there is a person standing behind that guitar, and music stand, and piss poor voice, et al...one with something to say. Yeats had it right - tread carefully on other people's dreams. Spot on. I remember a song competition on BBC TV a very long time ago (?1960s?)- watching it I was struck by a song based on that peom by Yeats and blagged it right away - I can remember the choon and chords, but must look out the words, which I was able to scribble out as the song was on several weeks running. Thanks for the reminder ourmaninthenorth . Keith Here you go Keith, The Cloths of Heaven Had I the heaven's embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light;
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W. B. Yeats Paul.
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 7, 2016 12:55:43 GMT
ourmaninthenorth - thanks Paul - actually I know the lovely Cloths of Heaven words right enough - but thanks for your trouble - what I need to try to remember (hopeless task) are the words of the song which took inspiration from the poem. The chorus was "Tread ever so lightly, love me only slightly. Day, day and night you're near my heart. Please tread lightly, we might part" And there were about three verses too I think. I know I have the words on a piece of paper...somewhere! Keith
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Post by davewhite on Oct 7, 2016 12:59:21 GMT
I know I have the words on a piece of paper...somewhere! Probably pinned to an old music stand
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