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Post by ourmaninthenorth on Oct 11, 2016 8:38:19 GMT
Maybe only those certified by the musical version of the thought police should be allowed to play live, why not go a little further and stop people playing all together if they don't pass the tests of the self appointed cognoscenti.
Some of the comments in this thread border on the vacuous, and one wonders why new blood is finding other things to do?
Have a bloody word with yourself.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 11, 2016 8:41:47 GMT
I have, I think, a reasonably good memory, Wild Violet (I don't use a script for sermons, for example), it's just that I 'sing out' once a year (at Halifax) and it's not worth the effort (in my opinion) taking the time to learn words to songs which I'll only ever play once If that detracts from my performance at HBx there's only one option, I'm afraid: stop performing. And I'm past the age where I care what anyone (apart from my wife and kids) think of me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone's opinion is valid and valuable. I just don't agree with some of 'em
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Wild Violet
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Post by Wild Violet on Oct 11, 2016 8:45:31 GMT
I'd be happy to hold up cue cards myself for you Leo! I'd be surprised if you could remember all your lyrics anyway with the vast amount of songs that you write.
The people I was talking about tend to hide behind the stands and keep their eyes on their music to avoid looking at anyone, which makes them hard to engage with, which in turn makes them less interesting. However, this thread has gone a long way towards ending my dislike of music stands. Who am I to judge?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 11, 2016 8:48:29 GMT
I have a sneaky feeling that those who oppose music/ipad stands (yes I have been an opposer in the past, and no I don't use one myself) have not yet reached the age where your memory has started to fail you. I don't like to see them when they are used as a crutch by someone with a perfectly fine memory, but I can't begrudge older or memory challenged people using them. ***runs to remove the set lists taped to both guitars Hmm, I think I'm getting there quickly! SaveSave
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Oct 11, 2016 8:52:45 GMT
I'd be happy to hold up cue cards myself for you Leo!
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 11, 2016 9:48:07 GMT
It's a pity that what started off as an excellent thread on the demise/future of folk clubs is on the verge of becoming a "'tis/'tisn't" tennis match over music stands. Just to expand a little on my previous post, thinking back (as all true COGs do) to the 1960s folk clubs I used to frequent, it almost seemed that there was something a little subversive about it, a bit edgy. And this despite the fact that most of us were singing rehashed songs of US origin, and/or ancient folk ballads - none of these had any real connection with our own lives, but were something to sing that wasn't from the pop song repertoire. New editions of the US "Sing Out" mag were eagerly scanned for new material. Most of todays folk elite were cutting their teeth on the folk club circuit (and it was a privilege to see them doing it) and the singer-songwriter thing was emerging - some with a more contemporary bent lyrically than others. Not long after, the folk-rock thing started up. Currently some of these musical threads survive, and there is a healthy string of new folky type acts gaining popularity with wider audiences, but in those areas with little to offer in the way of folk club type venues, how to these people make the transition from bedroom players to bigger gigs. It seems difficult to make the move from unpugged at home to playing out plugged in without doing the open-mic thing. In my immediate area these have largely taken over from folk clubs, even though they are vastly different in almost every way. They seem to be used by pub landlords solely as a cheap way of selling more booze, and almost completely lack the "community" feel that folk clubs used to have, and that survivng ones still do. I'm envious of those who live reasonably near to vibrant and regular folky/acoustic happenings. Yes, I know, I should start something myself, but after very many years playing in a ceilidh band and running acoustic tune sessions (which did work well) and an open mic in my own village (which didn't work well at all!) I don't think I have the energy/enthusiasm for it any more. Maybe I should just sit in the back room of our pub and play with to myself and see what happens. But I don't want to risk emptying even the back room.... Apols for rambling on; probably not even very constructively. Keith
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Oct 11, 2016 10:01:11 GMT
Maybe I should just sit in the back room of our pub and play with to myself and see what happens. But I don't want to risk emptying even the back room.... Good post, Keith. I think the bit above is important, though. I know a couple of pubs where exactly this happens. It's very loosely organised, with usually just two or three friends who take their guitar, banjo and/or mando down to the pub, sit in the lounge and begin playing (with the landlord's permission). This sometimes annoys some regulars who up and leave, but they can go next door to the bar area anyway. What it does do is attract people who want to listen, and locals with guitars suddenly begin turning up on these nights, hoping to join in. It soon becomes a cross between a session and a sing-around, depending on who's there, but it is very joiny-in. So, if you and Glyn (or others) were to just start playing in the pub, the worst that might happen is that you enjoy a jam session with beer or two. Or it could organically develop into something else. I don't think it always has to be super-organised. Of course, you might get overbearing plonkers who just want to take over and play Wonderwall loudly while wailing painfully (singing) the whole night
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 11, 2016 10:04:35 GMT
Gosh, who'd have thought what an emotive subject music stands can be? Just a little reminder, as the OP, if I may. This thread is actually about the future of folk clubs. Of course, where that is impacted by peoples' use of aides memoire, that's legitimate for inclusion, but I'm just a bit concerned that the other interesting and illuminating matters are being obscured by the passionate debate about one single issue. I'm also a little worried that things are in danger of starting to develop into harsh rhetoric and that's never been the spirit of this forum. Anybody got any views on integrating young musicians and those of us of more mature status? Anybody with ideas on what's the ideal format for a folk club? How should folk clubs promote themselves? What works and what doesn't? Is it fair to say that the places where folk clubs were traditionally held (upstairs rooms in pubs, village halls, meeting rooms in politically affiliated clubs, that sort of thing) are more difficult to find these days? Is intolerance of other peoples' needs and tastes partly responsible for the decline of folk clubs?
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Post by peterh on Oct 11, 2016 10:19:32 GMT
Lots of good debate here , having seen John Renbourne about 10 years ago, use his music and a stand, I've felt ok about anyone else too! Folk clubs need performers, what ever they use, and there is growing evidence that the songs we sing are all the product of classical/ stage music, whether penned today or days ago..so learn it if you can, but p[lay it whatever... See you Peter
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 11, 2016 10:43:12 GMT
Sorry...yes...I seemed to have got a bit defensive about something I claim to not even care about!
The thing is I'm not sure what a folk club actually is. Posters on the thread have differentiated between folk clubs, acoustic nights, sings rounds and sessions - and I think that might be the issue.
Is a folk club defined by the music, the instruments, the venue or something else? Or a combination of the above?
When I go and see Billy Bragg next month I think I am going to see a folk singer. But he plays an electric guitar. So is he?
Surely people (presumably mostly young people but not exclusively) need to have local venues at which they can be 'discovered' and move on in the business. I'm assuming that Ed Sheeran and Leonard Cohen (to take opposite ends if the age spectrum) didn't start out playing stadiums - but, rather, started in cafes or coffee houses or pubs. Any, or all, of which 'might' have been called a folk club.
There again, so, presumably, did Black Sabbath, Dire Straits and Barry Manilow (although the likelihood of their venues calling themselves folk clubs is slightly more remote!)
So, until there's some sort of agreement as to what a folk club IS, it is difficult for me to answer whether or not I think they have a future.
All I know is that I'm grateful to those venues, whatever they are, that allowed Ralph McTell, Show of Hands, Kate Rusby, Martin Carthy et al to get a foot in the door and decide it was worth the effort of seeing if they could make a living out of this music thing.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 11, 2016 10:45:42 GMT
........................... Is intolerance of other peoples' needs and tastes partly responsible for the decline of folk clubs? Aha! Good one. There's probably something in that, Paul. Most folk clubs tend to have quite a variety of types of and presentaions of the music. I used to be really turned off by unaccompanied (with or without finger in ear) singing - until I saw folk club spots by people like the Watersons and the Young Tradition, which were a revelation. Sometimes being obliged to listen to something can result in a change of opinion - but if the audience as a whole hadn't been respectful, perhaps I wouldn't have even tried to listen...? At some gatherings now there does seem to be more of a competitive edge than there used to be; the supportiveness suffers as a result of this, and as a result of the increasing number of players who do their spot and then promptly scoot and increasing numbers of audience members who listen to what they like talking loudly over anything else. This often results in volume wars and a perceived "need" for PA, which shouldn't be necessary in the many of the smallish rooms we are concerned with in this thread, provided that there is an expectation, respected by all, that while people are playing, attentiveness, or at least quiet, should be the norm. Maybe folk clubs should have a "talking shelter" outside. Upwind of the smoking shelter obvs. Keith
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 11, 2016 10:54:48 GMT
leoroberts, do I remember correctly? I think you told me once that you ran a folk club when you were at university. What were your experiences? What was your format? How successful was it? You make a good point about defining a folk club. I'm not going to attempt to, but I think the term encompasses singarounds, clubs with guest artistes and floor singers and (in some cases) sessions. Maybe more. But they are clubs where folk singing is the usual genre presented. There is also folk dance, of course, but I have no experience of this. Now I guess we need a definition of folk music. Oh bugger. What have I started here?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 11, 2016 10:58:01 GMT
leoroberts , do I remember correctly? I think you told me once that you ran a folk club when you were at university. What were your experiences? What was your format? How successful was it? You make a good point about defining a folk club. I'm not going to attempt to, but I think the term encompasses singarounds, clubs with guest artistes and floor singers and (in some cases) sessions. Maybe more. But they are clubs where folk singing is the usual genre presented. There is also folk dance, of course, but I have no experience of this. Now I guess we need a definition of folk music. Oh bugger. What have I started here? I guess there are big regional variations. In my part of the world the smaller folk clubs are becoming a thing of the past. Trying to find another format is something I spend a lot f time trying to do! SaveSave
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 11, 2016 11:07:31 GMT
provided that there is an expectation, respected by all, that while people are playing, attentiveness, or at least quiet, should be the norm. Maybe folk clubs should have a "talking shelter" outside. Upwind of the smoking shelter obvs. The little "club" I run is in a pub. It's actually the smallest pub in Dorset, so there's no question of a separate room where the noise and hubbub of usual pub goings on can be shut out. The noise was becoming intolerable when we had our monthly gathering, so I agreed with the landlady that she should have a sign written. It says: "This is not background music. It is the focus of the evening. Please respect the performers." I confess, I didn't expect it to make much difference, but it really did. It's now much easier to contain any unwarranted noise in the pub, purely because there is an authority, on the sign, that we can refer to. The noisiest of our regular disruptors now go elsewhere on our club nights, and the few that remain are discovering the joys of the music, and stay and listen.
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Oct 11, 2016 11:13:26 GMT
(should have hit the quote button...forgot!!!!)
I have...don't have to remember words, just fingerstyle guitar pieces as I can't read notation and don't get on at all with tab. The point I was trying to make is that memory can be made to work if exercised.
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