leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 11, 2016 11:13:42 GMT
leoroberts, do I remember correctly? I think you told me once that you ran a folk club when you were at university. What were your experiences? What was your format? How successful was it? Yes, indeed. But I'm not sure what it actually was! I was approached by a local landlord who'd seen me play (Ironically in Crewe where I suspect Keith used to play - was it called 'Sing Out'!) and he wanted some of the student pound that was floating around. So I agreed to give it a go. Once a fortnight. 1st half was floor spots, 2nd half was a guest if we could afford one. We managed to get acts like Jon Benns, Bill Zorn, a (very young) Steve Knightley, Allan Taylor... The pub gave us a few quid towards guests (and accommodation when needed) and a bottle of wine for the raffle. The Uni also gave us money if I asked nicely as they saw it as a nice town/gown liaison. Punters put a quad in a pint pot. It was unamplified - the room didn't need it - though we'd regularly get 40-50 folk, locals and students. The pub was able to switch the juke box speaker off in the lounge, though, which helped! People were respectful of the performers and those who weren't were spoken to by the landlord, accompanied by his Rhodesian Ridgeback We tried to book Ralph McTell once - but his £400 fee was just too much. Jake Thackray was half the price
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leitrimnick
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Post by leitrimnick on Oct 11, 2016 11:29:08 GMT
Small apology for my earlier post re memory, I hadn't seen some of the later posts and it wasn't my intention to fuel the music stand debate. To be honest, I've never in my life seen anyone using one in a folk club but then I've lived here for 13 years. Personally I don't care what the institution is called, folk club, acoustic music club w.h.y. as long as the organisation is reasonably professional, the Music Police are prevented from entering and the music is never presented in glass cases.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 11, 2016 12:12:03 GMT
provided that there is an expectation, respected by all, that while people are playing, attentiveness, or at least quiet, should be the norm. Maybe folk clubs should have a "talking shelter" outside. Upwind of the smoking shelter obvs. The little "club" I run is in a pub. It's actually the smallest pub in Dorset, so there's no question of a separate room where the noise and hubbub of usual pub goings on can be shut out. The noise was becoming intolerable when we had our monthly gathering, so I agreed with the landlady that she should have a sign written. It says: "This is not background music. It is the focus of the evening. Please respect the performers." I confess, I didn't expect it to make much difference, but it really did. It's now much easier to contain any unwarranted noise in the pub, purely because there is an authority, on the sign, that we can refer to. The noisiest of our regular disruptors now go elsewhere on our club nights, and the few that remain are discovering the joys of the music, and stay and listen. How lovely to have such a supportive landlady and an audience willing to shape up or ship out! I'm sure it also says a lot for your perseverance through the noisy times, and the quality of the music being performed. At risk to that last bit I must repeat my so far unfulfilled threat to make the effort to visit your club sometime - I just love reading your superb blurbs for it on F/B! Keith
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 11, 2016 12:17:48 GMT
leoroberts, do I remember correctly? I think you told me once that you ran a folk club when you were at university. What were your experiences? What was your format? How successful was it? Yes, indeed. But I'm not sure what it actually was! I was approached by a local landlord who'd seen me play (Ironically in Crewe where I suspect Keith used to play - was it called 'Sing Out'!) and he wanted some of the student pound that was floating around. Yup, the Sing Out club at the Brunswick Hotel, Crewe. Andy P spent formative years there too. So I agreed to give it a go. Once a fortnight. 1st half was floor spots, 2nd half was a guest if we could afford one. We managed to get acts like Jon Benns, Bill Zorn, a (very young) Steve Knightley, Allan Taylor... The pub gave us a few quid towards guests (and accommodation when needed) and a bottle of wine for the raffle. The Uni also gave us money if I asked nicely as they saw it as a nice town/gown liaison. Punters put a quad in a pint pot. It was unamplified - the room didn't need it - though we'd regularly get 40-50 folk, locals and students. The pub was able to switch the juke box speaker off in the lounge, though, which helped! People were respectful of the performers and those who weren't were spoken to by the landlord, accompanied by his Rhodesian Ridgeback We tried to book Ralph McTell once - but his £400 fee was just too much. Jake Thackray was half the price Sounds just right! Another supportive landlord (and dog!). Keith
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 11, 2016 23:41:23 GMT
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 11, 2016 23:43:29 GMT
I have, I think, a reasonably good memory, Wild Violet (I don't use a script for sermons, for example), it's just that I 'sing out' once a year (at Halifax) and it's not worth the effort (in my opinion) taking the time to learn words to songs which I'll only ever play once If that detracts from my performance at HBx there's only one option, I'm afraid: stop performing. And I'm past the age where I care what anyone (apart from my wife and kids) think of me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone's opinion is valid and valuable. I just don't agree with some of 'em Halifax is different Leo, a bunch of friends having a good time. The subject was the future of folk clubs. There are still some clubs who consistently get large (100+) audiences. But they tend to be organized on a concert basis with booked support acts and no floor singer or sometimes 1or2. These generally charge a bit higher admission also. Places like Bury Met and the Phil at Liverpool do very well with "folk" "country", "acoustic " and "Americana" music so there is definitely a thriving market. How new and upcoming acts break into the pro level is much more of a problem these days.
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Post by walkingdecay on Oct 12, 2016 8:50:23 GMT
Aging pros who need the words is a completely different matter. (Sadly) I don't think it's just oldies. The ability to memorise is a skill you can have more or less of, like musical ability, and language itself works in different ways in the minds of different people. As someone with a packrat memory I actually wish some performers would use crib sheets instead of leaving me sitting there thinking, "OK, what happened to the verse where the nurse is asleep whilst the babe bitterly doth weep? I like that bit."
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 12, 2016 12:01:41 GMT
Aging pros who need the words is a completely different matter. (Sadly) I don't think it's just oldies. The ability to memorise is a skill you can have more or less of, like musical ability, and language itself works in different ways in the minds of different people. As someone with a packrat memory I actually wish some performers would use crib sheets instead of leaving me sitting there thinking, "OK, what happened to the verse where the nurse is asleep whilst the babe bitterly doth weep? I like that bit." This is where we get into the difficult choices bit. Some of us believe that folk club audiences have declined as the quality of the entertainment on offer has declined. To participate in anything there are requisite skills required as the level of participation goes up. My ability at drawing or painting never got beyond matchstick men so I don't try to be an artist. I'm a lifelong supporter of Hull City but my skills as a footballer might be entertaining on one level but actually are hopeless and always were, so I never played much. Actors at any level wouldn't be entertaining if they had the script in their hand because they lacked the skill to remember the lines. Why should music be any different? Harvey Andrews learned to write songs because he was only allowed a spot by Iain Campbell at the Jug of Punch in Birmingham if he'd written and learned a new song. We had no option when I started. You had to know the words. Getting away with not bothering because you can is a lose lose situation.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 12, 2016 13:02:07 GMT
I'd go back to the 'orchestra' argument someone made. Those musicians will have played the piece hundreds of times in rehearsal - yet nobody raises an eyebrow when they have the music in front of them. Do they NEED the music? I doubt it. Is it useful for them to have it there 'just in case'? Probably. Do I think less of them because they have, what are in effect, crib sheets? Nope I do like Harvey Andrews, mind
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 12, 2016 13:25:56 GMT
I'd go back to the 'orchestra' argument someone made. Those musicians will have played the piece hundreds of times in rehearsal - yet nobody raises an eyebrow when they have the music in front of them. Do they NEED the music? I doubt it. Is it useful for them to have it there 'just in case'? Probably. Do I think less of them because they have, what are in effect, crib sheets? Nope They are most definitely not "crib sheets". If you ask the vast majority of classically trained musicians they will tell you that they cannot play by ear and have to read the music. And that's written music not lyrics. Some years ago I went to see Lyle Lovett in Vancouver. He had a string quartet as part of his backing band. The sound was amazing, one of the best I've ever heard. At the end of the concert Lyle thanked the quartet and said he had only met them the day before and there had only been a couple of hours rehearsal. Readers are playing the music as it is written not cribbing the words because they haven't learned them.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 12, 2016 13:37:10 GMT
I'm not suggesting they play by ear, Chris...I'm saying they (in most cases) will have rehearsed the pieces lots of times so, by your reckoning with words, should have learned what note goes where. Maybe this is why orchestras don't play at folk clubs? We clearly disagree on a basic premise and I've no more chance of changing your opinion as you have of changing mine. So I'm just gonna leave it there
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 12, 2016 13:56:02 GMT
I'm not suggesting they play by ear, Chris...I'm saying they (in most cases) will have rehearsed the pieces lots of times so, by your reckoning with words, should have learned what note goes where. Maybe this is why orchestras don't play at folk clubs? We clearly disagree on a basic premise and I've no more chance of changing your opinion as you have if changing mine. So I'm just gonna leave it there The point I was making is that no they don't practice to the point of memorising a piece. They read the music , fortissimo and all that stuff. And they may we'll be playing parts of symphonies that are miles longer than anybody the songs we sing and far more complicated. They are most certainly not using music as a crib sheet, Have you not seen pianists who have an assistant turning over the page for them. They do not memorise the music they read it. I wish I could!
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Oct 12, 2016 15:02:12 GMT
Hi all,
Apart from making an early comment about memory and lyrics I've just been watching the interesting debate on this broad subject. Clearly there are different views on some key issues. Perhaps I can sum up my own thoughts, having read those of others, by a description of my local folk club.
Meets weekly in dedicated room in pub. Unplugged. ‘Stage’ area up front. Normal format is 2 weeks a month singers nights; 2-3 numbers each, ending with everyone up together jamming a well-known song. 1 week a month is a ‘feature night’ for half the evening (2 short spots) supported by a couple of regulars who do 3-4 numbers. 1 week a month is a 'guest night' (paid) for most of the evening, occasionally supported by a regular as a ‘warm-up’. It’s £1.00 entrance for singers nights; £3-5 for the others. Raffle; and sarnies included at break. There are usually around 75-100 people there, full house more often than not, rain or shine. Audience is 90% regulars. It’s been going 40 plus years. So, on a singers’ night who performs?
-Occasional newbies and nearly newbies with limited experience. Quite a few errors, fumbles. Many with music stands or lyrics on a stool. -Occasional better non-regular newbies testing out a new song. Sometimes with aids. -Regular average ability performers, mainly covers, sometimes limited repertoire, sometimes with lyrics, occasional tablets, possibly 85% not assisted.
-Good regulars, usually no aids. -Good players who play elsewhere, sometimes paid, may be trying something new. Usually no lyrics, well-rehearsed, occasional lapses. -Some unaccompanied singers; occasional poetry reading (from a sheet or a book); accordions, banjos, mandolins, violins, ukes, occasional percussion; and occasional more unusual instruments. Probably 75% are 6-string guitar. -Age 18-80, more 45-65. -Lots of (appropriate) audience joining in choruses but not overdone. Quite a bit of laughter (nice type). -Overall probably 90% covers, 10% written themselves. So, who gets the most applause??? Answer, no-one. Everyone gets applauded loud and clear. Certainly as much for the poor performers with lyric aids, who even then forget the words and the chords but have really tried to do it.
Why is it so successful? Because audience and performers alike encourage, help, appreciate, listen, learn and enjoy and are tolerant of all types and levels of performance, with or without aids. Trying, with whatever ability you have, and whatever help you need, is as important as succeeding. (Only wish I could do both!)
That’s the sort of folk club and people which in my opinion will stop them dying out.
FFJ.
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Post by ourmaninthenorth on Oct 12, 2016 16:41:45 GMT
One way to lose me in any musical conversation, or indeed any oral conversation, is to talk in prescriptive terms... you should have said this, you need to play it like this...etc etc.
It's not how the mechanics of my life work. I don't dig the straight jacket mentality of pedantry..too busy listening, playing, or thinking to really have the time for such acrobatics.
I think I'll dig out one of Sonny Rollins's improvisations to listen to...he doesn't need charts, ergo anything to put the buggers on. He doesn't have to worry about memorising the script, there isn't one. Man, I love that Blower.
I may very well have a conversation with my Wife this evening...that won't have been rehearsed either...
To the OP's question - if some of the narrated derision expressed here is typical, the future of Folk Clubs for me can be counted in minutes.
The price I'll pay for the chains I refuse.
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Post by Andy P on Oct 12, 2016 18:39:53 GMT
leoroberts , do I remember correctly? I think you told me once that you ran a folk club when you were at university. What were your experiences? What was your format? How successful was it? Yes, indeed. But I'm not sure what it actually was! I was approached by a local landlord who'd seen me play (Ironically in Crewe where I suspect Keith used to play - was it called 'Sing Out'!) and he wanted some of the student pound that was floating around. So I agreed to give it a go. Once a fortnight. 1st half was floor spots, 2nd half was a guest if we could afford one. We managed to get acts like Jon Benns, Bill Zorn, a (very young) Steve Knightley, Allan Taylor... The pub gave us a few quid towards guests (and accommodation when needed) and a bottle of wine for the raffle. The Uni also gave us money if I asked nicely as they saw it as a nice town/gown liaison. Punters put a quad in a pint pot. It was unamplified - the room didn't need it - though we'd regularly get 40-50 folk, locals and students. The pub was able to switch the juke box speaker off in the lounge, though, which helped! People were respectful of the performers and those who weren't were spoken to by the landlord, accompanied by his Rhodesian Ridgeback We tried to book Ralph McTell once - but his £400 fee was just too much. Jake Thackray was half the price Having been a regular at the Sing-out leoroberts, I'm intrigued to know where this pub was. Alsager by any chance?
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