Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 12, 2016 19:02:24 GMT
I don't think it's just oldies. The ability to memorise is a skill you can have more or less of, like musical ability, and language itself works in different ways in the minds of different people. As someone with a packrat memory I actually wish some performers would use crib sheets instead of leaving me sitting there thinking, "OK, what happened to the verse where the nurse is asleep whilst the babe bitterly doth weep? I like that bit." This is where we get into the difficult choices bit. Some of us believe that folk club audiences have declined as the quality of the entertainment on offer has declined. To participate in anything there are requisite skills required as the level of participation goes up. My ability at drawing or painting never got beyond matchstick men so I don't try to be an artist. I'm a lifelong supporter of Hull City but my skills as a footballer might be entertaining on one level but actually are hopeless and always were, so I never played much. Actors at any level wouldn't be entertaining if they had the script in their hand because they lacked the skill to remember the lines. Why should music be any different? Harvey Andrews learned to write songs because he was only allowed a spot by Iain Campbell at the Jug of Punch in Birmingham if he'd written and learned a new song. We had no option when I started. You had to know the words. Getting away with not bothering because you can is a lose lose situation. I agree with your sentiments here. I haven't been to a folk club for years but I do attend the occasional session/open mic (without the mic) in a couple of local pubs. There are some very good performers but quite frankly some really awful ones. But I never fail to be surprised what some people find musically pleasing, who some people think are talented. It's their choice if they want to listen to this stuff but personally I struggle as to my ears it's almost painful. OK I'm intolerant and I should be less discerning, but that's the way it is. Interestingly I attended an informal "folk night" in a pub up in Derbyshire, where we were visiting a couple of weeks ago. There were seven or eight performers sitting round a lovely oak-panelled room having it in turns to do a song and they were all good, one very good. There were no egos on view. As it was a Sunday there weren't many drinkers in but those that were really enjoyed it, as did I. As for the main question in this debate, I'm not in a position to comment, but I do know that the Sandbach club, which is run by old friends of mine, is doing very well, having gone through periods of bust and boom over the last 30 years. The guy who runs the club nearest to me these days is organised I believe by a guitarist who believes he's wonderful. I witnessed an occasion at another venue where a young female fiddler was playing a couple of Irish reels, and playing them very well. He took it upon himself to accompany her, in the wrong keys and playing totally the wrong chords. And he never even knew it. Give me strength.
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 12, 2016 19:31:30 GMT
I don't have any problem at all with music stands except when the performer is studying it so intensely that he/she forgets they're supposed to be entertaining us.
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 12, 2016 21:02:10 GMT
Having been a regular at the Sing-out leoroberts, I'm intrigued to know where this pub was. Alsager by any chance? Got it in one, Andy P... "Folk At The Grove". For the bigger acts (Arizona Smoke Review, Jake Thakray, et al) we de-camped to the college for the night I guess we kicked off in 1980/1... I did 2 stints at Sing Out - once as a solo and once as part of a trio - neither was a paid gig although playing folk clubs helped pay for my degree There was quite an active 'scene' in those days: The Romping Donkey, The White Swan... I was convinced I was going to be famous like Ralph. I mean, I was bound to be - I was playing his songs
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 12, 2016 21:07:00 GMT
but I do know that the Sandbach club. By 'eck - they gave me my first ever paid gig! I'll never forget one of my own songs "Dressing On The Left" went down like a lead balloon... LOL
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 12, 2016 21:41:27 GMT
Hi all,
Apart from making an early comment about memory and lyrics I've just been watching the interesting debate on this broad subject. Clearly there are different views on some key issues. Perhaps I can sum up my own thoughts, having read those of others, by a description of my local folk club.
Meets weekly in dedicated room in pub. Unplugged. ‘Stage’ area up front. Normal format is 2 weeks a month singers nights; 2-3 numbers each, ending with everyone up together jamming a well-known song. 1 week a month is a ‘feature night’ for half the evening (2 short spots) supported by a couple of regulars who do 3-4 numbers. 1 week a month is a 'guest night' (paid) for most of the evening, occasionally supported by a regular as a ‘warm-up’. It’s £1.00 entrance for singers nights; £3-5 for the others. Raffle; and sarnies included at break. There are usually around 75-100 people there, full house more often than not, rain or shine. Audience is 90% regulars. It’s been going 40 plus years. So, on a singers’ night who performs?
-Occasional newbies and nearly newbies with limited experience. Quite a few errors, fumbles. Many with music stands or lyrics on a stool. -Occasional better non-regular newbies testing out a new song. Sometimes with aids. -Regular average ability performers, mainly covers, sometimes limited repertoire, sometimes with lyrics, occasional tablets, possibly 85% not assisted.
-Good regulars, usually no aids. -Good players who play elsewhere, sometimes paid, may be trying something new. Usually no lyrics, well-rehearsed, occasional lapses. -Some unaccompanied singers; occasional poetry reading (from a sheet or a book); accordions, banjos, mandolins, violins, ukes, occasional percussion; and occasional more unusual instruments. Probably 75% are 6-string guitar. -Age 18-80, more 45-65. -Lots of (appropriate) audience joining in choruses but not overdone. Quite a bit of laughter (nice type). -Overall probably 90% covers, 10% written themselves. So, who gets the most applause??? Answer, no-one. Everyone gets applauded loud and clear. Certainly as much for the poor performers with lyric aids, who even then forget the words and the chords but have really tried to do it.
Why is it so successful? Because audience and performers alike encourage, help, appreciate, listen, learn and enjoy and are tolerant of all types and levels of performance, with or without aids. Trying, with whatever ability you have, and whatever help you need, is as important as succeeding. (Only wish I could do both!)
That’s the sort of folk club and people which in my opinion will stop them dying out.
FFJ.
Apols for taking up so much space quoting this post in full, but it is worth reading again! Thank goodness that there is evidence of another club doing well that espouses encouragement, tolerance and variety - as indeed many clubs used to do in years gone by. Thanks John for posting. Keith
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David Hutton
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Post by David Hutton on Oct 13, 2016 0:27:12 GMT
Funnily enough, pre this thread, I had been looking at folk clubs in my area. Much of this thread so far has put me off, particularly with the references to music stands and more so the below par performers. Don't get me wrong, if i the unlikely event I ever performed live, I would be well over practiced and hopefully would not need the stand. I would also be far less entertaining than Leo and Keith with music stands. I understand that if people have paid for entertainment there should be a relevantly high level of entertainment and that perhaps is what a folk club is. I do not know as I have never been to one. All that said fatfingerjohn 's club sounds great!
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Andy P
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Post by Andy P on Oct 13, 2016 5:31:13 GMT
but I do know that the Sandbach club. By 'eck - they gave me my first ever paid gig! I'll never forget one of my own songs "Dressing On The Left" went down like a lead balloon... LOL We need to hear this.
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 13, 2016 7:04:24 GMT
Funnily enough, pre this thread, I had been looking at folk clubs in my area. Much of this thread so far has put me off, particularly with the references to music stands and more so the below par performers. Don't get me wrong, if i the unlikely event I ever performed live, I would be well over practiced and hopefully would not need the stand. I would also be far less entertaining than Leo and Keith with music stands. I understand that if people have paid for entertainment there should be a relevantly high level of entertainment and that perhaps is what a folk club is. I do not know as I have never been to one. All that said fatfingerjohn 's club sounds great! David, don't let this thread put you off. The strife and raised tempers on this thread are rarely experienced in folk clubs (or, usually, on this forum)! I think it's a good idea to go once as an audience member to a folk club at which you're considering playing. You'll see for yourself what the atmosphere and the quality is like, and it's quite likely, in my experience that you'll be made welcome. Many clubs have rules for performers though sometimes they're more like customs, and you'll find out what they are from talking to people. This is particularly necessary in the tiny minority of clubs that specialise in a particular type of folk music. One I know of isn't interested in instrumentalists, only unaccompanied singers, so you wouldn't want to haul your guitar to that one! You'll probably also be most struck by the high quality of most performers rather than the poor quality of a few. But the key is that all clubs are different. As you've seen from this thread, we're even having a problem defining a folk club! But many singarounds are as good in atmosphere (though few are as high quality) as the circle of death at Halifax. And I know you enjoyed that. Dip your toe in the waters of performance, David. There are no sharks there. Do your prep and knock em dead. You'll not regret it, I promise you.
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David Hutton
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Post by David Hutton on Oct 13, 2016 22:03:58 GMT
Thanks for the encouragement Paul. Any public appearance is seeming very unlikely. I just sold a guitar and the buyer asked me to play it for him I crumbled and could not even play my own tunes. That said I don't want to take this off topic. I think I might try a folk club which is very local to me, but only with the intention of watching!
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Post by ocarolan on Oct 13, 2016 23:00:49 GMT
David, don't forget that you've already lost your public performance virginity at HB6 - very capably so too. Obvs that was playing with three other people, which is maybe less intimidating than going solo, but are there any other folk you know who you could team up with for some informal jamming in non-public situations as a stepping stone?
Btw, you're welcome to visit again for a bit of a strum if you like - I could see if Glyn might be around too - could be fun! No pressure, just give it some thought and keep it in mind.
Keith
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Post by earthbalm on Oct 14, 2016 6:19:39 GMT
Funnily enough, pre this thread, I had been looking at folk clubs in my area. Much of this thread so far has put me off, particularly with the references to music stands and more so the below par performers. Don't get me wrong, if i the unlikely event I ever performed live, I would be well over practiced and hopefully would not need the stand. I would also be far less entertaining than Leo and Keith with music stands. I understand that if people have paid for entertainment there should be a relevantly high level of entertainment and that perhaps is what a folk club is. I do not know as I have never been to one. All that said fatfingerjohn 's club sounds great! David, don't let this thread put you off. The strife and raised tempers on this thread are rarely experienced in folk clubs (or, usually, on this forum)! I think it's a good idea to go once as an audience member to a folk club at which you're considering playing. You'll see for yourself what the atmosphere and the quality is like, and it's quite likely, in my experience that you'll be made welcome. Many clubs have rules for performers though sometimes they're more like customs, and you'll find out what they are from talking to people. This is particularly necessary in the tiny minority of clubs that specialise in a particular type of folk music. One I know of isn't interested in instrumentalists, only unaccompanied singers, so you wouldn't want to haul your guitar to that one! You'll probably also be most struck by the high quality of most performers rather than the poor quality of a few. But the key is that all clubs are different. As you've seen from this thread, we're even having a problem defining a folk club! But many singarounds are as good in atmosphere (though few are as high quality) as the circle of death at Halifax. And I know you enjoyed that. Dip your toe in the waters of performance, David. There are no sharks there. Do your prep and knock em dead. You'll not regret it, I promise you. Here's one of my local folk clubs: www.lyceumfolknewport.org.uk . I haven't been able to attend for a couple of years because teaching leaves me pooped by a Thursday night but when I retire from teaching in February, I'll be a super regular attendee. The club has never been anything other than welcoming and supportive to me or anybody else there.
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stigd
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Post by stigd on Oct 14, 2016 11:43:44 GMT
Great Discussion.
I must admit I stopped going to RTR, open mics, acoustic nights et al because frankly I became bored.
I am all for democracy and everyone getting a fair chance but at some point surely you have to sort the wheat from the chaff. Well, if you want to attract audiences and new members I think you do.
Some places I attended allowed a man-and-wife team to perform two songs every time because they accompanied each other - or rather she played a whistle. Then a band consisting of three blokes were given three songs, one each, same lead singer every time. Another lady had a folder of songs as thick as an (old fashioned) telephone directory. She never committed any of them to memory. An old guy insisted on joining-in with a harmonica which never seemed to be in tune with the song being played.
The quality of performance was often poor and the potential audience wandered off to the sanctuary of the other bar.
Occasionally, there were really good acts that I wanted to hear more of but it was another hour before they performed again.
I don't claim to have all the answers but a grading system is a possibility. This would be encouraging to the newer performers, get better and you can play more often. Don't just think you can turn up, forget the words, play bum notes, sing flat yet still get as many goes as everyone else.
Cheers,
Stig.
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 14, 2016 12:28:06 GMT
I don't claim to have all the answers but a grading system is a possibility. This would be encouraging to the newer performers, get better and you can play more often. Don't just think you can turn up, forget the words, play bum notes, sing flat yet still get as many goes as everyone else.
Sensible. I run a series of occasional evenings which are not open mics but based on people I know who are good enough to hold their own. A few places I know so something similar, giving four or five people half an hour in an evening. Another decent place I got to has two halves. The first is an open mic, the second starts with a feature artists (local but good) who plays for about 30 mins. And then the open mic recommences. This seems to work. Real newbies are often put on at the end which means they have to sit through everyone else rather than get up first and then go home (which drives me mad). So, we have lots of music near me but not much of it using a folk club format. A few people I know though have started mostly singarounds in pubs and this format might be making a comeback! SaveSave
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leoroberts
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Post by leoroberts on Oct 14, 2016 13:41:40 GMT
I don't claim to have all the answers but a grading system is a possibility. This would be encouraging to the newer performers, get better and you can play more often.
Who does the grading? The person 'in charge' is unlikely to hook his/her mates...
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Oct 14, 2016 13:49:57 GMT
This guy...
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