stigd
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Post by stigd on Oct 14, 2016 15:32:38 GMT
This guy... Looks formidable! I guess it should be the caller but there is a danger of the old pals' act. Or maybe a small panel of regulars as long as they don't turn into Simon Cowell & Co! Stig.
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Post by slasher on Oct 16, 2016 19:12:03 GMT
Oh dear! I'm sorry that my comment early in this thread have perhaps sent it down a different route, but I am of the firm belief that unless you learn a song then you can't interpret it as well as someone who has learnt it. At the folk clubs I attended in the 60's and 70's absolutely nobody sang from word sheets. Same as you wouln't join your local Am Dram group for their annual Shakespeare production, dress in your doublet and hose and walk around the stage reading from a script. I think that Folk Clubs have disappeared in many areas simply as a matter of fashion. Folk was very trendy in the "folk boom" of the late 50's,60's and 70's with the likes of The Dubliners, Dylan and others in the Charts and folk acts such as The Spinners having TV series. Though there does seem to be a resurgence recently I can't see that level of popularity returning. It seems to me that some want to take part without having to bother putting in much effort. There was a problem on the Irish music scene about 15-20 years ago when people seemed to think that turning up and bashing a bodhran at the session was acceptable, short shrift was given.
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stigd
Strummer
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Post by stigd on Oct 17, 2016 9:30:39 GMT
Oh dear! I'm sorry that my comment early in this thread have perhaps sent it down a different route, but I am of the firm belief that unless you learn a song then you can't interpret it as well as someone who has learnt it. At the folk clubs I attended in the 60's and 70's absolutely nobody sang from word sheets. Same as you wouln't join your local Am Dram group for their annual Shakespeare production, dress in your doublet and hose and walk around te stage reading from a script. I think that Folk Clubs have disappeared in many areas simply as a matter of fashion. Folk was very trendy in the "folk boom" of the late 50's,60's and 70's with the likes of The Dubliners, Dylan and others in the Charts and folk acts such as The Spinners having TV series. Though there does seem to be a resurgence recently I can't see that level of popularity returning. It seems to me that some want to take part without having to bother putting in much effort. There was a problem on the Irish music scene about 15-20 years ago when people seemed to think that turning up and bashing a bodhran at the session was acceptable, short shrift was given. This echoes my opinion precisely; if you are going to perform a song then learn it properly.
I know this is one of the most difficult aspects for some people, especially beginners, but they should just concentrate on a few numbers until they know them by heart and can do them justice.
I remember seeing a singer who couldn't read her crib sheet in the half-light of a pub and the performance broke down.
I guess one of the reasons that 'acoustic nights' have appeared is to widen the appeal beyond folk, whether this approach works I don't know.
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 17, 2016 10:11:09 GMT
With you 100% Oh dear! I'm sorry that my comment early in this thread have perhaps sent it down a different route, but I am of the firm belief that unless you learn a song then you can't interpret it as well as someone who has learnt it. At the folk clubs I attended in the 60's and 70's absolutely nobody sang from word sheets. Same as you wouln't join your local Am Dram group for their annual Shakespeare production, dress in your doublet and hose and walk around te stage reading from a script. I think that Folk Clubs have disappeared in many areas simply as a matter of fashion. Folk was very trendy in the "folk boom" of the late 50's,60's and 70's with the likes of The Dubliners, Dylan and others in the Charts and folk acts such as The Spinners having TV series. Though there does seem to be a resurgence recently I can't see that level of popularity returning. It seems to me that some want to take part without having to bother putting in much effort. There was a problem on the Irish music scene about 15-20 years ago when people seemed to think that turning up and bashing a bodhran at the session was acceptable, short shrift was given.
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David Hutton
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Post by David Hutton on Oct 17, 2016 12:08:58 GMT
David, don't forget that you've already lost your public performance virginity at HB6 - very capably so too. Obvs that was playing with three other people, which is maybe less intimidating than going solo, but are there any other folk you know who you could team up with for some informal jamming in non-public situations as a stepping stone? Btw, you're welcome to visit again for a bit of a strum if you like - I could see if Glyn might be around too - could be fun! No pressure, just give it some thought and keep it in mind. Keith Most kind Keith and a strum does sound great. Slightly embarrassed to admit that due to my anti social nature, I do not really know anyone for informal jamming. I agree that doing this kind of thing is probably far more feasible for me to do. Anyway I am taking this thread off topic, sorry. Back to folk clubs...
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Post by thejamsinger on Oct 17, 2016 18:50:19 GMT
This is all getting a bit like X factor. The thing is when deciding who is good enough it's a bit subjective. I've seen people murder some songs and yet perform others really well. The other thing to consider is if the same few are performing week in week out and no else gets a chance you run the risk of people getting fed up and stop attending. Also the venue that hosts the club expect to make a bit of money out of people buying drinks. If letting people perform whether they are good or not keeps them attending then I'm all for letting them have a go.
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stigd
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Post by stigd on Oct 18, 2016 6:53:44 GMT
I suppose it depends what the group's aim is. If it is to provide a platform for all abilities in a club format then fine, let everyone have equal performing time, but if it is to provide entertainment in a pub you surely have to go with quality. Taste is subjective but knowing whether someone can really sing and play is not. People want to hear good live music.
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Post by dreadnought28 on Oct 19, 2016 18:39:58 GMT
I suppose it depends what the group's aim is. If it is to provide a platform for all abilities in a club format then fine, let everyone have equal performing time, but if it is to provide entertainment in a pub you surely have to go with quality. Taste is subjective but knowing whether someone can really sing and play is not. People want to hear good live music. Whether pub or club most people want to be entertained and will only return if they are. The majority of the clubs I've attended in recent years on non guest nights have had virtually no attenders who are not "performers" (term used loosely) or someone accompanying them. The word clique comes to mind and at several clubs nobody even bothered to say welcome or come again.
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stigd
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Post by stigd on Oct 20, 2016 10:17:19 GMT
Well, when I said club format is ok for all abilities I was trying to be constructive with regard to beginners who obviously need exposure to live performing. In RTR sessions it is a lottery as to what the general quality will be on the night. Too many below-average turns and any audience disappears.
Everyone should be made to feel welcome but I agree that isn't always the case. Sometimes you do feel as if you are intruding on a private party.
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Post by scorpiodog on Oct 20, 2016 10:50:25 GMT
I think we are suffering from expecting one size to fit all syndrome.
There are plainly several types of event/organisation all called folk clubs. I really don't think sessions fit into the description at all, despite folk music in its broader sense being performed there. Also, I don't think concerts by professional musicians held at concert venues can be included.
But, if I may be permitted to attempt to categorise folk clubs we have:
Gatherings where most or all attendees perform. Can we call these "singarounds"?
Regular meetings where a professional artiste (or more than one) performs and is supported by local unpaid performers who are chosen to perform (floor singers). I'll call them "conventional folk clubs".
Open mic type evenings (whether there are mics or not!) where acoustic music is performed. I'll call them "open mics".
More specialist associations dealing with a specific type of music (eg, unaccompanied traditional songs, or blues, or songwriters). "Specialist clubs"
Clubs that have a mixture of some or all of these. I'll call them "acoustic clubs".
I don't think I've forgotten any that have been mentioned already in this thread, but if anybody has other suggestions, please tell us.
Now, having defined these types, are there any thoughts on whether each has a future? How well attended are any you know? How should they be run? Is there any scope for the organisers to make a profit?
In my view, the type most in danger of extinction is the singaround. I think that's a shame, because these are exactly the type of clubs where people cut their performing teeth, but I guess the open mics can take over from these for singers and small ensembles.
I also don't think there are enough of the conventional folk clubs around to regenerate the folk club spirit. Andy has already mentioned the Red Lion in Birmingham, which is probably one of the most famous of the folk clubs left, and the fact that it is, if not exactly struggling, at least less well attended than it used to be. Why is this happening? Has it just had its day, or is this type of club being undermined by alternatives?
I was also very interested to hear that in some places the young people are not learning to play instruments. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case where I live.
And what of the role of folk festivals? They seem to be far more numerous than I can remember from my youth. Are they having a role in the changing scene?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 20, 2016 12:28:20 GMT
Pauk is right about the death of the singalongs! Maybe there are other formats!
The Red Lion in Kings Heath is a case in point. It used to be avery popular club where all the big names came. The guy who built it up decided to retire, buy a barge, and sail own through France. He couldn't find anyone to take it over. Eventually a couple f classical academics from Bham University came forward. In many ways these two are great but they don't have quite the same personality. The developed the booking policy. Then the pub made them switch from Saturday nights to mid week and things really went downhill then.
A few things strike me about the Red Lion. To see a decent artist there costs quite a bit. Younger members of the audience and non folkies really don't seem to enjoy the 'club' bits and they and the artists seem to prefer one off promoted events nearby. Paradoxically I think the audience for acoustic music — in all of its cross over formats — has grown and many of those coming to gigs now (even if older) don't really understand the folk club tradition and are not prepared to put up with it.
The sing alongs still exist. There are a couple of traditional sessions, small but enthusiastic. There is a political song session near me which I sometimes use to try out new songs — although i've known some of these folks for ages they don't seem that friendly!
Finally, folk festivals have had a big impact in spreading the message of acoustic music. they bring in a new audience and give a decent income to many artists. But I think they put more 'space' between themselves and the old folk format.
I know what Chris means about entertainment but I don't quite agree always. There is a space for clubs and booking policies that mix decent performers with those playing their first gig/s. Some of us try hard to mix tried and tested performers with space for newbies. What the old clubs did was give you a training ground allowing you to mix and learn from experience musicians. Many of the newbies I now see are quite old, often retired. While they can be very good they often seem to have learnt in the back room and haven't experienced the help from other musicians. Sadly, these new formats really don't give them that support.
Much of this I can see in one of my favourite local evenings _ the Chaos Acoustic Club.
Chaos puts on a weekly event (sadly a sunday evening). They give four artists each at least half an hour, which is good. The audience does tend to be other musicians. Those new musicians of a certain age turn up, do their stuff first and then bugger off — which i both poor form and a real shame. They often end up with a duo or trio who is really good at covers which I don't mind if there is still the space for those of us who do original stuff.
But I'll come back to Chris' point about entertainment.
I'm pleasantly surprised at how well all kinds of audiences receive my material. Sometimes i think it is because there is not that much original stuff around at the moment. But I've been doing this for ages, know how to work an audience and so on — although I do still have a crap evening like everyone. Sometimes I wonder why I do it, but you only two or three people to come up and say they like your songs, for it all to seem worthwhile.
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Post by slasher on Oct 20, 2016 13:16:45 GMT
All the events in my area are Singarounds or tune-only sessions. A couple of them call themselves folk clubs but are not really as they follow the 'round the room' format, mainly songs with the occasional tune and never a booked guest. There are four sessions that are mainly tunes:- Irish, Blues, Bluegrass and Non-Irish. On the whole they are welcoming and a couple of them have quite a young age attendance which is encouraging. The folk club I used to attend in the sixties was a club, you joined and had a membership card which gave you slightly cheaper entrance on booked guest nights. In those pre internet days it also had a considerable library of song books, tune books and teach youself books that were mainly borrowed by the younger club members.
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stigd
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Post by stigd on Oct 21, 2016 11:25:27 GMT
Personally I think the only format with any real future is acoustic nights. Traditional folk clubs will die out because they are not replenishing members. Singers droning their way through 47-verse songs do not interest the young. The world is faster these days and attention spans are short. People can't be expected to sit through 10-minute dirges any more. There is still a place for traditional songs but performances need to be snappier. Miss out a few verses chaps and cut to the chase.
I think it is admirable to sing one's own songs rather than go for the somewhat easy option of familiar choruses though there is no doubt how important the recognition factor is in connecting with an audience. A good interpretation of a well-known song can really lift an evening. I always try to congratulate a special performance but not everyone does. There is often a kind-of "he knows he's good and I ain't gonna tell him so" attitude. Does an one else find this is so?
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Post by andyhowell on Oct 21, 2016 14:25:26 GMT
I suspect you are eight about acoustic nights. What is most important is having organisers who try and balance what they do.Encourage some young talent, spotlight original work while also recognising that of us like a good singalong to some of the classics.
A depressing trend around here goes like this. Some Muso with a PA sets up running open mic nights for pubs. They get paid for doing it. They essentially bring a circuit of their mates to whatever place is happy to have them at other times. This is fine to some extent but it does nothing to develop any sense of community or to help pass on performance skills.
I think though we should recognise just how much work is involved in running a successful club or acoustic night. I ran an acoustic evening for four or five years. Some nights were were packed and some nights quieter. Sometimes we had a ticket price but most often didn't. We would also give acoustic bands a shot of somewhere to play.
I gave up because I was sick to death of humping a PA around every week. It took me 12 years to begin to even think about something again. To build a really hood acoustic night takes hard graft.
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andrewjw
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Post by andrewjw on Oct 21, 2016 18:56:33 GMT
Hmmmm... It seems to me that if you are lucky enough to have a "folk club" of whatever genre/type nearby that you can identify with then support it ... If not ...then seek out other like minded people and get together at home from time to time... Either might lead to the other...
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