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Post by clydeslide on Nov 3, 2014 14:37:00 GMT
I've wanted a redwood guitar for a long time... Then you now what you need to do to try and get one, enter the competition! Colin It would involve me doing something I've never done before but I suppose you have to be in it to win it and it's a fantastic looking guitar... I'll have to see what I can do.
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 4, 2014 12:40:28 GMT
Someone is going to be very privileged to own this. To my eye it is so restrained and understated. It is just beautiful. What will it sound like I wonder? How will it feel to hold it and play? Goodness me. One thing I guarantee is that it will sound like a guitar, it will also feel and play like a guitar, everything else is a matter of individual preference. It may not sound like any one person's ideal guitar, or even feel and play the way any one person likes. It will probably sound and play close to the way I like a guitar to be which of course might not be to any other individual's taste. The thing is there is no standard sound that a guitar is supposed to make. Colin
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Post by andyhowell on Nov 4, 2014 13:04:28 GMT
Kind of important that isn't it! When I commissioned my new guitar I knew I wanted something different from the 'Martin' type sound. I added Adrian Lucas to my list of luthiers in no small part because I saw his guitars described as 'European' sounding. Like you, he makes guitars that sound right to him. It is nice to play one of the guitars in advance and it is lovely when a luthier's idea of tone corresponds with your own!
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 7, 2014 15:06:29 GMT
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leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 26,148
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Nov 7, 2014 15:26:05 GMT
<sigh>
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Post by earwighoney on Nov 7, 2014 15:40:20 GMT
Fretting is a subject that I can get quite argumentative about, but suffice it to say that Dave and I both agree on how it should be done, so of course we are right. Sorry to ask but why is fretting a subject to be argumentative about? My only perspective towards it is as a player and I think it's a really important part of the guitar but I have no idea to the differences to frets/fretting aside from a few things being different thicknesses and bar frets. The BRW board indeed looks very nice. Sorry for another question, but it's relaying a discussion from a nylon string forum where they were discussing their beliefs the wood used for the bridge has a huge amount of impact on the tone. Is that something you agree with? Do you have any favourite choices for bridges?
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 7, 2014 16:16:56 GMT
Fretting is a subject that I can get quite argumentative about, but suffice it to say that Dave and I both agree on how it should be done, so of course we are right. Sorry to ask but why is fretting a subject to be argumentative about? My only perspective towards it is as a player and I think it's a really important part of the guitar but I have no idea to the differences to frets/fretting aside from a few things being different thicknesses and bar frets. The BRW board indeed looks very nice. Sorry for another question, but it's relaying a discussion from a nylon string forum where they were discussing their beliefs the wood used for the bridge has a huge amount of impact on the tone. Is that something you agree with? Do you have any favourite choices for bridges? It's really about how the frets are installed and the processes used to make sure they are level. A lot of builders tend to follow the factory route of installing the frets and then leveling them afterwards with a large file, which then means re-crowning the frets again. I believe that if the previous work is done properly, level the neck, level and flatten the fingerboard, then if the frets are carefully installed and checked for level as you go, the need to run a big file over the top of them to get them level is removed. I know Dave and a number of the other builders I talk to work the same way as me. When I went on the Romanillos course, he would have had apoplexy if any of his students had needed to file their frets after installation, as it simply shows sloppy workmanship in an earlier part of the process. A lot of the problem comes from the early guitar building books, which probably quite rightly did not assume that everyone would be as accurate in their wood work, so adopted the factory process of fret leveling after installation. With a bit of experience a good custom builder should never need to take a file to the fret crown which the manufacturer has taken a great deal of care to make smooth and even. So, to many it is the received wisdom that frets need leveling after installation. No they don't if the job was done properly in the first place! See I said I can be argumentative! The BRW board came from an early 19th century dining table leg. It's the old growth straight grain BRW that is simply not available any more. The bridge will be made from the same wood. In my lab some years ago I ran a lot of tests on different type of woods to test them for their ability to transmit wave functions. Their were a number of woods that dampened this transmission especially at the higher frequencies, most notable among these was ebony, now this can be useful if a guitar is built with a stiff top which favours the trebles, using an ebony bridge may re-balance the guitar, but at a reduced overall level. The best among the woods used were the Brazilian and Madagascan rosewoods, Macassar ebony and EIR, with ziricote and some of the other rosewoods also proving OK. You'll find that on most classical guitars that BRW or EIR is the bridge material of choice, it is even more important on a classical guitar than a steel string as they are much lower energy systems, If I'm building a classical guitar for a UK or European user, then I'll always use BRW, for the USA I use EIR. Steel strings will normally have a bridge wood matching the FB, BRW, Madagascan rosewood or Ziricote, never ebony. So yes the bridge wood can have a great influence on the tone of the guitar, more particularly on it's balance. Colin
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Post by clydeslide on Nov 7, 2014 17:23:22 GMT
Ron Thorn appears to do it the same way and that guy makes possibly the nicest electric guitar you'll find (which surely can't be that hard compared to acoustics! ).
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 7, 2014 17:47:01 GMT
Ron Thorn appears to do it the same way and that guy makes possibly the nicest electric guitar you'll find (which surely can't be that hard compared to acoustics! ). Yes same way on my electrics as well. I make a CS336 style guitar which is popular, sort of like a cross between a 335 (Lucille type) and a Les Paul. And yes, electrics are easier!
Colin
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Post by colan on Nov 7, 2014 17:54:01 GMT
Mmmmmmm, pretty. I'm aiming for a custom 335, further down the road.
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Post by clydeslide on Nov 7, 2014 19:57:06 GMT
Ron Thorn appears to do it the same way and that guy makes possibly the nicest electric guitar you'll find (which surely can't be that hard compared to acoustics! ). Yes same way on my electrics as well. I make a CS336 style guitar which is popular, sort of like a cross between a 335 (Lucille type) and a Les Paul. And yes, electrics are easier! Colin They are stunningly beautiful! I have a Gordon Smith LP Jr. Something like that is about the only thing that would replace it!
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Post by earwighoney on Nov 9, 2014 21:30:32 GMT
It's really about how the frets are installed and the processes used to make sure they are level. A lot of builders tend to follow the factory route of installing the frets and then leveling them afterwards with a large file, which then means re-crowning the frets again. I believe that if the previous work is done properly, level the neck, level and flatten the fingerboard, then if the frets are carefully installed and checked for level as you go, the need to run a big file over the top of them to get them level is removed. I know Dave and a number of the other builders I talk to work the same way as me. When I went on the Romanillos course, he would have had apoplexy if any of his students had needed to file their frets after installation, as it simply shows sloppy workmanship in an earlier part of the process. A lot of the problem comes from the early guitar building books, which probably quite rightly did not assume that everyone would be as accurate in their wood work, so adopted the factory process of fret leveling after installation. With a bit of experience a good custom builder should never need to take a file to the fret crown which the manufacturer has taken a great deal of care to make smooth and even. So, to many it is the received wisdom that frets need leveling after installation. No they don't if the job was done properly in the first place! See I said I can be argumentative! The BRW board came from an early 19th century dining table leg. It's the old growth straight grain BRW that is simply not available any more. The bridge will be made from the same wood. In my lab some years ago I ran a lot of tests on different type of woods to test them for their ability to transmit wave functions. Their were a number of woods that dampened this transmission especially at the higher frequencies, most notable among these was ebony, now this can be useful if a guitar is built with a stiff top which favours the trebles, using an ebony bridge may re-balance the guitar, but at a reduced overall level. The best among the woods used were the Brazilian and Madagascan rosewoods, Macassar ebony and EIR, with ziricote and some of the other rosewoods also proving OK. You'll find that on most classical guitars that BRW or EIR is the bridge material of choice, it is even more important on a classical guitar than a steel string as they are much lower energy systems, If I'm building a classical guitar for a UK or European user, then I'll always use BRW, for the USA I use EIR. Steel strings will normally have a bridge wood matching the FB, BRW, Madagascan rosewood or Ziricote, never ebony. So yes the bridge wood can have a great influence on the tone of the guitar, more particularly on it's balance. Colin Thanks for the info Colin, Interesting point about the frets, something I had no idea about! It was a fascinating thing to read about, I was thinking possibly the route of levelling frets came from a time where frets had to be levelled (ie from bar fret days)? Good info about woods and wave functions, for bridges in particular for ebony bridges dampening frequencies at the higher frequencies and how that can be a good thing for guitars with stiff soundboards - perhaps for guitars with Adirondack soundboards? In the statement above, an ebony bridge (I presume African or Indian ebony) would create less output/volume than the bridges of BRW, EIRW, and the others mentioned? Thanks for the info about nylon string guitars. I've never seen one with a ebony bridge; the issues with damping make sense. Interesting that you prefer to not use ebony for steel string bridges. The lab tests sound fascinating, there are a lot of aspects of guitar related things which seem to have some 'bad' science attached and it'd be great to have some actual science behind it! Also, the Gibson ES-339 alike gave me some serious GAS. I can feel the evil side of electric guitars calling me back again...
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 10, 2014 10:35:06 GMT
If taken to the correct thickness and braced accordingly Adirondack is good top wood not over stiff but with good headroom. No, the main guitars that may need their over bright trebles tamed a little with an ebony bridge are those where the dictates of the guarantee and the in-house lawyers and accountants rule. Don't forget that 99.9% of guitars do not have their tops individually tuned, they are produced from a set of standardised top thickness and bracing, so most tend to be over engineered, giving a stiffer than needed top, but less likely to come back under guarantee. These may then benefit from an ebony bridge to balance the guitar. What I and the other custom builders try and do is to get as much information through from the strings as possible, so we do tune tops and try and achieve a natural balance, so you'll never see me use an ebony bridge. When I did the tests I already knew that BRW produced the result that I wanted, the problem of course is that BRW is CITIES 1 listed, so is virtually impossible to buy as timber with the right paperwork, I was looking to see what woods performed as closely to BRW as possible, and Madagascan (also heading down the CITIES path), EIR, Macassar and EIR came closest. Then we were lucky and the bottom dropped out of the brown furniture market, and some old BRW furniture could be found at a reasonable price. The larger parts are usually veneered, but things like legs and carcass parts are often solid wood, so the crisis was averted. But if making a guitar for overseas, which I do, then no BRW. And don't get me started on some of the 'science' being applied to guitars! The electric I make is based on the CS336 (8) rather than the 339, they are the same shape, but the 339 is built as a smaller version of the 335, with laminated top and back glued to ribs with a central spine. The 336 is built using a solid mahogany body which is then routed out and a solid carved top glued on. Gibson call then 'tonally carved' this is the inside of one of my 336s and I think you'll see what I mean. The 336 gives a more 'rocky' tone, one of my players says it has the sweetness of the 335, the growl of a Les Paul and the edge of a Telecaster. With some good PAFs, my favourite electric by far. Colin
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Post by vikingblues on Nov 10, 2014 19:54:45 GMT
It's a great thread Colin - not only seeing the coming to life of such a special instrument, but also in all this information that helps us understand guitar building so much better.
It does seem the factory method gets so much bass-ackwards. When tuning the top and carving the bracing are rightly of such major importance to the guys with skill at building, the factory method just has to skip that. Then they try to get around it by buying higher quality wood in the first place to try and compensate for it, and it appears from what you say, use materials elsewhere on the guitar in the hope that it offsets some of the results of the fundamental flaw in their building process.
Of course the lack of skilled labour keeps the costs down and so we, the guitar buying public, encourage them by feverishly buying more and more of their instruments in the hope of finding one of the really good ones that statistically have to exist (in small numbers).
By the way I've hardly touched an electric for a year, but those pictures of your CS336 style still caused a bit of a stirring deep down in my soul. Beautifully presented. Makes my Chinese Hagstrom Viking Deluxe look distinctly down-market!
Mark
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colins
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 2,397
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Post by colins on Nov 11, 2014 15:36:28 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the factory builders or their guitars, it's just not possible for them at a large level of production to individually tune their tops, as far as I'm aware Martin stopped this in 1969 on the move to their new factory so that they could meet demand.
I'm actually quite fond of Larrivee guitars, of the major manufacturers I think they have the most consistent build.
It's a good education to look at some of the Taylor videos on their website, Factory Fridays I believe they were called, it shows a good example of building guitars out of component boxes, but again the end results are pretty good. The only problem I have with factory guitars is that the guys making them know how to make better guitars, and yet they don't, purely for economic reasons. But again without those reasonably priced guitars there would be no market for higher end ones as no beginner is going to pay £3k or more to learn. So, a place for everything.
Colin
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