Martin
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Post by Martin on Mar 28, 2015 8:00:28 GMT
After some consideration, I decided to have a look at the vintage Windsor banjo up for sale near me. It looked to be in wonderful condition generally for its supposed age of around 90 years old. The seller advised me he had bought it from someone on eBay a few years ago to learn on, but wasn't playing it. He said he had researched it quite a bit online and that was how he had managed to date it to the 1920's. The neck, although slightly bowed, and the headstock a little off-line, seemed in superb condition - I asked specifically about this, and if it was a new neck, but he said no it was original, and showed me the headstock stamp and makers label on the dowel stick/perch pole to prove it. It had friction tuners, a period tailpiece and the pot seemed genuine, although I was surprised that it was exactly 11" diameter, as many of this era are 10 5/8" diameter. Anyway, the price was reasonable, and crucially, the banjo played well with a nice sound, so I agreed to buy it. When I got it home and proudly showed it to my wife, she scoffed at my claim it was 90 years old and pointed to the new neck, plastic tuner buttons and flawless label  She's happy that it's a lovely banjo, good value and very interesting, but reckons it's not all original. When I take my newly-purchased-love-in specs off, I now tend to agree, but I'd welcome any input from vintage instrument or even vintage banjo experts ( Mike Floorstand are you there?  ).  The banjo in its glory - all seems well, even with the shiny new white head  The head in more detail - a modern 11" diameter! How convenient   The maker's label - all seems legit, but it's in amazingly good condition for its 'age'...  A bit of damage to the inside of the pot/rim, and wooden wedges holding the dowel bracket in place - why?  'Ivory' (very plastic) tuner buttons - unusual shape, but plastic in the 1920's?   Maker and model stap on the headstock - looks exactly right, but on a new neck? Factory closed in 1940...   The pot looks to have a genuine, cleaned up patina. I'm sure the pot is from the correct period.  Tailpiece is lovely and looks right.  Slight bow in the neck - expected, doesn't affect playability too much.  Neck has a small screw in place as a fifth string 'pip' (nut).  The complete rim set looks fine to me, but does it suggest a new neck/dowel has been fitted?  The neck itself seems to be the correct shape/profile, but is unvarnished and in remarkably good condition. |
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Mar 28, 2015 9:23:23 GMT
Interesting instrument Martin! Congrats! Are the tuners modern replacements? They look like it, with the prominent mould line down the middle and the screw fixing. But, as for plastic in the 1920s, Bakelite, an early plastic, was invented in 190? and was produced in quantity by the 1910s in US. Bakelite Ltd (UK) was formed in 1926. So, early plastic tuners may possibly have been around in the 1920s. Lighter colours, as per your tuners didn't really come out till later though I don't think. Here's how to tell - antiques.about.com/od/bakeliteandplastics/tp/aa041506.htmHave fun with the banjo! Keith |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Mar 28, 2015 9:29:04 GMT
Thanks very much for the info, Keith. I think they could be replacements, or maybe the banjo was made in the 1930's.
I was having an awful time keeping it in tune, but this morning tightened the 2nd string tuner as far as I could, and it's worked.
Holding tune, sounding great and playing really well. Regardless of provenance, this is one fab little banjo.
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Mar 28, 2015 12:55:36 GMT
Here's sample of the sound, although it's fuller in person.
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ocarolan
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Post by ocarolan on Mar 28, 2015 15:08:00 GMT
Thanks very much for the info, Keith. I think they could be replacements, or maybe the banjo was made in the 1930's........... We are fortunate in having a Bakelite Museum near here. More like a decaying barn with a heap of bakelite junk, but also a mine of useful/useless information! Nice sound on the vid! Keith |
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Mar 28, 2015 15:48:29 GMT
Where is Fiona Bruce when we need her, eh? Anyway I have studied your photos very carefully, and I'm 99% certain .... ... the Remo head is not original. Sorry about that.
You've probably already found these:
www.blackswanguitars.co.uk/windsor-popular-banjo/ (Another Popular Model Model 2, seems identical to yours except it seems to have metal tuner buttons and yours has a resonator bracket on the dowel stick. I suppose a resonator might have been a shop or after market upgrade, but if yours did have one fitted at some time, it might explain the good condition of the maker's nameplate?)
classic-banjo.ning.com/photo/my-windsor-popular-3-1930s-1/next?context=user (Popular Model 3, with round bracket shoes)
guitarrepairers.com/1920s-windsor-popular-banjo/ (Popular Model 4, looks very similar to yours but has fewer brackets. And a black nut. You can see the ebony wedges in the neck brace, yours must have been lost and replaced with the wooden ones you now have)
www.northernbanjoboy.com/2009/02/windsor-popular-no2.html (a Popular Model 2 apparently, but not very good photos, and seems quite different to yours - seems to be unplated brass and has the maker's label on the heel)
www.vintagebanjomaker.com/#/windsor-part-2/4569361847 (a Popular No 1. Metal tuner buttons again. This one has a resonator but attached by brackets on four of the tension hooks. I won one of these resonators on ebay a few months ago, but haven't got round to fitting it on anything yet as the brackets don't quite fit).
Your tuners may not be original but don't look modern either (they look very yellow in the photo or is that just my screen?), I suppose they could have been replaced any time in the last 90 years. I wouldn't worry about that - I'd be tempted to replace them with something modern anyway. I don't see why the rest of it couldn't be original. When you say it has a new neck, are there really no signs of fretboard or fret wear? I guess it could just have been cleaned up by an enthusiast. I think if someone were going to go to the trouble of "forging" a new neck, they'd be more likely to copy a Windsor Premier or other higher end model with fancy inlays and a shaped headstock, which would fetch a higher price.
I like the way the notches on your tension ring aren't cut all the way through.
BTW I'm not sure which "banjo expert" you're confusing me with Martin, but he'll be furious if he finds out! |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Mar 29, 2015 0:00:00 GMT
That is all really useful and interesting info, Joe. Thanks for going to all that trouble, and for your (expert) opinions I feel a lot more comfortable about the banjer now, and the resonator explanation seems likely. |
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leoroberts
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My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
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Post by leoroberts on Mar 29, 2015 6:42:56 GMT
Well it sounds nice enough in your video, Martin. If you're happy with it, and the sound it makes, then you've got yourself a bargain, I reckon! |
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Mar 29, 2015 17:23:34 GMT
Don't you find it reassuring that the Queen comes from a long family line of banjo makers though  |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Mar 29, 2015 18:06:47 GMT
 This one was made by Barbara!
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Apr 10, 2015 15:42:55 GMT
Right. The friction tuners are getting on my nerves, so I'm having a go at replacing them. I've ordered really top quality, amazingly brilliant planetary tuners off some Chinese guy on eBay, so they should be here when the boat arrives in the Summer  I've also bought a cheap Rolson 3mm to 12mm reamer (for to make 'em tuner holes bigger, innit). Before I begin this utter lunacy worthy project, does anyone have specific experience of this sort of thing, and what should I be aware of (don't be nasty!)? I'm looking at you Mike Floorstand (and obviously all you wonderful loofiers out there) |
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Post by Mike Floorstand on Apr 10, 2015 21:03:26 GMT
I've done this once and therefore a leading expert in this field! It was actually easier than I thought. Pick a sunny day (or at least not raining too heavily), sit in the garden (with at least one pint of Irn Bru), and use the reamer very slowly. A bit from one side then the other, and keep testing the new tuners for fit. I have a feeling the taper on that Rolson reamer might be too steep. That means, by the time the hole is reamed enough to push the new tuner in, the entry and exit diameter may be too wide for a nice snug fit. But you can test it before wrecking the banjo - find a scrap piece of wood of similar thickness to the headstock, drill a hole in that same as your existing friction holes, then have a practice ream. If the practice ream doesn't work, you might be able to frig it by starting off with the reamer and finishing off the middle with a drill bit. Or get a reamer with a 30:1 taper (mine was about 4.5 to 8.5mm, but you might need a wider diameter if the new tuner shaft is bigger), but they are more expensive (the cheapest I could find worked out at about £22 from a Canadian violin dealer on ebay). You may find this useful too: www.banjohangout.org/blog/32294Good luck! |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Apr 10, 2015 21:59:23 GMT
I didn't think of the taper of the reamer! Thanks for the advice and link. Very useful  |
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davewhite
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Post by davewhite on Apr 11, 2015 15:10:07 GMT
Martin, Assuming you need to make the existing holes a bigger diameter you really need a set of reamers to gradually increase the hole size keeping it perfectly round all the way through the peghead. Like these: Axminster reamer setIf you aren't using a drill press you'll need the hand tap wrench they mention. Alternatively if you have a drill press you would plug the old holes by carefully gluing in dowels without messing up the peghead finish and then drill out the larger holes with the right size and type of drill bits - start off with a brad point bit for accuracy but stop half way through the peghead then use a blacksmiths bit to complete the hole - and suitable scrap wood caul where the drill bit exits the peghead. Or you could pay Rory to do it for you |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Apr 11, 2015 21:08:23 GMT
Thanks for that, Dave. I think I almost understood some of it too....it's not easy being this thick  Cheers for the link and the advice, although I ain't paying nobody to drill some 'oles  |
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