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Post by vikingblues on Jan 18, 2016 17:31:52 GMT
Just wondering if any members here are going to have a go at the online free songwriting course that was mentioned by walkingdecay in the "Shoutbox" here?
Free Songwriting Course
Particularly if there are any of you having a go who, like me, really are not songwriters or even singers/players of songs, however much the definition of the term might be stretched! I noticed Lynn said in the Shoutbox that she'd be joining but that makes sense - very much into singing and playing songs.
I've just received the recommended listening listing for the start of the course in a weeks time. Some perusal of that list and some listening to a few songs sort of brought it home to me that I don't like very many songs. I also tend to listen to the music at least as much as the words. Which begs the question why this course for me ..... apart from it being free!
Possibly just cold feet and my usual negative reactions to having to do any structured learning.
I think I'd likely have not signed on if it hadn't said in the course notes that "Martin Simpson will be using the same words and the same set of techniques to write a song. We’ll be checking in with him each week for inspiration and guidance on the songwriting process". That, for me, might make the process worthwhile on its own.
Mark
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 18, 2016 19:23:07 GMT
You could write a song about not liking songs, and how the trouble with the human voice is that it blocks out the sound of the guitar.
That reminds me - I once tried to get my reluctant son to join the church choir. I asked him, "What is it about the choir that you don't like?" He replied, "The singing."
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Post by medwards on Jan 18, 2016 22:34:48 GMT
Thanks so much for pointing this out vikingblue - I didn't see the original shout walkingdecay either. I am going to try this as part of a new years resolution to find more focus in my playing and music making - oh and I've just added to read the shoutbox too!
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Post by lavaman on Jan 19, 2016 10:50:44 GMT
I've signed up for this course again. I started it last summer but my PC blew up half way through, and took two weeks to mend and then I went on holiday so I never caught up and finished the course.
This year's course looks the same as last - basically they take a poem and you have to strip it down and rearrange some of the words to form usable lyrics. They then give advice on how to compose a tune around it and add the harmonising chords. There are some interesting videos from Martin Simpson and others about how they approach song writing. For me, the course was disappointing because they didn't cover the other way to write songs where you start with a tune and then write the lyrics to suit.
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jan 19, 2016 11:28:27 GMT
Hi,
Just had a quick look; might take me the first 3 hours to read the T&C's! But it looks interesting. Presumably you can drop out at any time if you don't find it useful or worth the effort. Might give it a go ...
Thanks for reposting.
John
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 19, 2016 14:08:53 GMT
basically they take a poem and you have to strip it down and rearrange some of the words to form usable lyrics. They then give advice on how to compose a tune around it and add the harmonising chords. There are some interesting videos from Martin Simpson and others about how they approach song writing. For me, the course was disappointing because they didn't cover the other way to write songs where you start with a tune and then write the lyrics to suit. Whichever way round they do it, I can't see how they can teach how to write a tune. For me, that would the hard bit. If you have no musical ideas you can't get blood out of a stone. I once went to a music evening class, and the teacher decided to base it on composition. Great for those who were already writing songs, as most of the class were, but it left me floundering.
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 19, 2016 19:38:14 GMT
basically they take a poem and you have to strip it down and rearrange some of the words to form usable lyrics. They then give advice on how to compose a tune around it and add the harmonising chords. There are some interesting videos from Martin Simpson and others about how they approach song writing. For me, the course was disappointing because they didn't cover the other way to write songs where you start with a tune and then write the lyrics to suit. Whichever way round they do it, I can't see how they can teach how to write a tune. For me, that would the hard bit. If you have no musical ideas you can't get blood out of a stone. I once went to a music evening class, and the teacher decided to base it on composition. Great for those who were already writing songs, as most of the class were, but it left me floundering. I think I find the most difficult thing is writing lyrics! If I can get lyrics - in the past I have often cheated by using my wifes writing skills / nicking and adapting her poetry - then if I can find a rhythm to suit and a chord progression to suit, some sort of tune seems to arrive in my head fairly naturally. But then I used to improvise electric guitar over backing tracks so I'm used to hearing a melody line in my head based on the rhythm / backing chords I'm hearing. But making up good chord progressions and getting complementary verse / chorus / bridge is also horribly tricky for me. That's an area I'm hoping to get more insight into from this course. However as it's all free I'm not expecting much, and certainly not miracles. I suspect I'll end up using the resident poets words, though I see they do say you can write your own. Glad there's a few other forum people here trying it out - might be nice to be able to share a few mutual tribulations! Mark
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Post by leoroberts on Jan 19, 2016 21:58:08 GMT
I think I find the most difficult thing is writing lyrics! I suspect I'll end up using the resident poets words, though I see they do say you can write your own. Glad there's a few other forum people here trying it out - might be nice to be able to share a few mutual tribulations! Mark So collaborate! Whether you nick someone else's words (the poet's) or get someone to write something specially for you (your Mrs) it's all allowed.
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 24, 2016 10:14:18 GMT
I've done some more listening to the songs on the recommended listening list and it has reminded me how a successful song for the listener is down to far more than just the words, the chords / harmonic progression, and the artist involved.
This is all just a personal opinion obviously but the only listeners reaction I can judge to songs is my own. To support my case I would particularly call as evidence the huge difference, notably in the acoustic music field, between live versions and studio versions of the same song.
I will highlight two examples based on the songs on the recommended list:-
1) "Oh My Sweet Caroline" - Ryan Adams. Studio Version
Live Version
The live version moves me on an emotional level and the studio one doesn't. The video on Vimeo with Laura Marling for me benefits HUGELY from having no drums and piano. I admit that I usually prefer stripped down versions of acoustic based songs. The balance of the vocals and instruments also seems much better. I feel that it is sung with more feeling, emotion and subtlety in the Live version and the two voices on the chorus also blend so much better than they did on the studio version. Listening to the studio version compared to the live version it seems to me that the vocal track in the studio has had artificial dampening inflicted on it - as did the guitar track in the studio for that matter.
2) "Goodbye England" - Laura Marling. Studio Version
Live Version
The live version to my ears is lovely. It lets the feeling and emotion of the voice shine through and not be swamped by ooky strings and other sugary accompaniments. The lyrics are strong in emotion and have a depth to them - they make for a very good song if they're allowed to shine through. Where the singers voice is quite delicate it realyy needs just a delicate accompaniment or so much is lost.
In both cases I had a very lukewarm reaction to the songs when I first heard them in the studio versions, but the "Live" versions communicate with me and trigger my enthusiasm and I find they are then songs that would definitely encourage me to seek out others by the same artists.
It seems to be a studio recipe for so many acoustic artists to add all these extra layers of instruments onto a song, and I really wish they wouldn't. It has put me off buying a fair number of CDs by artists who I enjoy listening to a lot in the live context.
Mark
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jan 24, 2016 12:18:40 GMT
Hi Mark,
I've signed up for the course; can't see where you are getting your 'recommended listening' stuff from on line. What am I missing?
Regards
FFJ
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 24, 2016 16:28:05 GMT
I got an e-mail from FutureLearn on the 18th - "How to Write Your First Song - we're starting in a week". A paragraph in the e-mail headed "Week 1 playlist" has a link at the words "a list" The link took me to HEREHope that helps. Let me know if you have a problem - I can send you a copy of the list. Mark
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Post by fatfingerjohn on Jan 24, 2016 22:25:30 GMT
I got an e-mail from FutureLearn on the 18th - "How to Write Your First Song - we're starting in a week". A paragraph in the e-mail headed "Week 1 playlist" has a link at the words "a list" The link took me to HEREHope that helps. Let me know if you have a problem - I can send you a copy of the list. Mark Thanks Mark.
FFJ
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Post by vikingblues on Jan 31, 2016 10:17:29 GMT
I thought I'd do the odd update report on this venture into learning. Supposed to be heading into week 2 on Monday technically, but I've looked at nearly all week 2 material now. Week 1 was very much a gentle introduction so I took the opportunity to get ahead of myself while I can. I can understand lavaman mentioning Martin Simpson appearing on the videos. For me in both weeks 1 and 2 that is where the course has got interesting and inspiring. Unfortunately his week 1 video was so inspiring that within a day I had an outline of a song in place and 2 days later I had a piece arranged and recorded! Which now means I've got to go back to square one and start again and try to work on a version using the course material rather than my own ideas - it will need a totally new approach with words and guitar tuning because once the basic idea of a song is in my head I find it difficult to edit it to any major degree. It's still in my head as I speak and I wish it would just shut up. SHUT UP!!! However attempt 1 had very heavy editing of the poem / lyrics supplied. So attempt 2 can have pretty much the full lyrics - much more of a challenge as there are long and short lines. I'll do standard tuning too instead of DADGAD - that will REALLY make it more of a challenge. I've had NO inspiration at all for any words of my own - not a single solitary sausage - not even the smallest chipolata. So far the main emphasis has been on the rhythm of the words and how they apply to the music. I have found the more intuitive approach to understanding that has been espoused (strewth?!) by Martin Simpson and some of the other pro musicians on the videos much more useful than the analytical more academic approach taken by some of the teachers (counting the number of syllables in every line - that sort of thing). I noticed when Martin Simpson started talking about a possible melody for the words in his week 2 video he first strummed his guitar that was on its stand next to him and then started singing. I'm convinced as he was singing he could hear in his head the sort of chords and progressions he would use in the accompaniment - leading to a melody that sounded right and grounded straight away. I'm not convinced that it is possible to create a good melody on its own without that sense of the key and the harmonic possibilities. I'd love the course to prove me wrong but I'm sure it won't. So I'll have to stick with finding a chord progression to make sense of the rhythm of the words, then find a melody to work with those chords. On the plus side I don't (as yet) feel out of my depth. Mark
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 31, 2016 11:09:28 GMT
Even if the course does nothing but clarify that you can't work with other people's methods or material, you might come out with more confidence about using the best method for you, so it won't have been a waste of time.
I'm only speculating but I wonder if the easiest way is start with the bit that you find the most difficult, and then add the less difficult ingredients. For me, thinking of a melody would be almost impossible so I would start there. In the past I've written lots of "lyrics" and never once been able to put them to music.
I'll be interested to follow your progress.
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Post by missclarktree on Jan 31, 2016 16:49:35 GMT
Curiosity got the better of me and I've gone and signed on. I have a feeling I'll regret it, having no musical creativity whatsoever. I've crashed through Week One, as the emphasis is on lyrics.
Spent the rest of the afternoon trying to think up a few snatches of melody, but every time I thought of something it soon turned into a tune that exists already.
I've had one idea - put a blindfold on, stand in front of a keyboard and pick a note at random. Spin round and pick another one, etc, and then the challenge would be to turn it into a credible tune.
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