richm
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 47
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Post by richm on Jan 31, 2016 20:30:56 GMT
I like your bravery, I guess you're going for a drum kind of idea where the middle of the soundboard, or skin, is the most free to vibrate? There is a chance that the rotation of the bridge will cause the board in between the bridge and sound hole to cave in... We shall see!
If you're good with laminating, have you considered making up concentric rings emanating from the bridge for a future project?
Rich
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Jan 31, 2016 22:47:12 GMT
I guess you're going for a drum kind of idea where the middle of the soundboard, or skin, is the most free to vibrate? Sounds suspiciously like a banjo to me and that's not really a sound I should be aiming for! You're not the first person to worry about a cave-in, either, and I suspect both of you know what you're talking about. I didn't mean to be brave but I'd rather not jump ship now so we'll have to see what happens (as everyone says) - unless I give it some thought over the next few days and change my mind... but then I think you might be rather disappointed. I hadn't thought of concentric lamination instead of bracing but that's not to say I won't think of it some time in the future. And isn't there a village down the road from you called The Bryn. Small world, eh?
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Feb 1, 2016 9:19:55 GMT
Rob, I think you will be OK - go with your muse and instincts. The stiff rim and front to back "skeleton" connecting the neck and tail blocks will give a lot of strength to resist the "folding soundboard" forces. Adrian Lucas ( ajlucas) has used radial bracing for both steel and nylon strung instruments so he may comment more. To me that bracing pattern would tempt me to use a floating bridge with tailpiece with a more compressive rather than rotational torque at the bridge. You will learn a lot and the worst that can happen is that you may have to put a new top on with a modified bracing pattern.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 1, 2016 9:38:22 GMT
Thanks for your reassurances, Dave; I really needed them. Still, it's good to be put on the spot and be forced to think things through thoroughly before putting glue to wood (or after in my case). I might yet extend the 4 curtailed X-brace limbs a little to give them more chance of holding on under the bridge. Meanwhile, it's back to a large oak desk and a chaise longue that need mending. Luckily, they don't have to sound good once they're fixed!
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 1, 2016 14:18:50 GMT
I did consider one slim brace right down the middle from top to bottom but that's not really in the spirit of the thing so I'm going with which, in case you can't tell the difference, has the more longitudinal braces extended further under the bridge whilst maintaining the clear lines of flexibility both across the middle of the bridge and up/down through the middle of the bridge. This will, unfortunately mean replacing the four braces which are already glued in place: No problem.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 3, 2016 16:43:09 GMT
This is more like it:
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 4, 2016 12:52:15 GMT
And now with the A-brace or, more accurately, the /\-braces: I had better come clean as well about the strange little marks you can see on the soundboard. They were little screw-holes in the door that provided the Douglas Fir: You can see I made them into little diamonds hoping it would help disguise them when patched: But it didn't really work: As usual, I blame the glue. I'm going to revert to cascamite if things don't improve!
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davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
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Post by davewhite on Feb 5, 2016 8:58:50 GMT
Rob, In my experience making invisible repairs "in situ" is impossible. I don't have the skill and once you know it's there the eye is always going to be drawn to it. Therein lies the solution. It all hinges around what are perceived to be "flaws" and "perfection". These are all relative concepts - to paraphrase Paul Simon "One man's ceiling is another man's flaw". If the eye is always going to be drawn there then take advantage of it. The first option would have been to leave the nail holes as they were. They are a character of the wood you have chosen to work with and in Shaker style they are proudly to be seen. The second option is to give the eye something interesting to see when it is drawn there. Turn them into bullet holes, or "wormholes" - either woodworm or Cosmic black holes - or maybe inlay something like the "crowsfeet" you have in the rosette to continue that feature. Thirdly you could always scrap a decent tonewood top and replace it with something more conventionally viewed as "unflawed" but to me that would be a sacrelidge and a waste of an opportunity as the guitar is yours and not a commission. Blaming the glue is definitely a cop out. Is cascamite something you put in your coffee? Sounds like an order of monks or a degenerate city in Genesis - the Cascamites
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francis
C.O.G.
Posts: 2,483
My main instrument is: Whatever I'm building...
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Post by francis on Feb 5, 2016 9:34:18 GMT
Mmmm Cascamites, where the insecticide...
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 5, 2016 10:01:10 GMT
"The Cassacamites"... I feel a Desmond Dekker tune coming on...
The thing about Cascamite is that it doesn't stain and you can add pigments to it to match the surrounding wood - it's only to that extent that I'm blaming the glue. I'm not too bothered personally about the holes and wouldn't have drawn attention to them above if I hadn't wanted to make a feature of them - ring them with a red felt-tip perhaps(!). I never imagined they would disappear completely but I can do a fair job at the finishing stage with a little brush, a little polish and a little pigment. They'll still be there to be pointed out with a "ho ho - it's an old door" but they won't be "in your face", as the vernacular would have it.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 6, 2016 11:41:21 GMT
They used to make motorbikes by building a frame and then bolting an engine on to it as I understand it; nowadays they build an engine and then bolt bits of frame on to it so that the engine is an integral part of the frame. It saves weight amongst other things. Well, I think that's what I'm trying to do with the bridge and the braces. The trouble is, of course, that in trying to brace and then voice the soundboard I'm lacking that central link - the bridge/engine - which holds the whole thing together as a unit. Consequently, I haven't really got something I can do much "voicing" with. It fools you into thinking it's a unit because you can pick it up as one and it looks a bit like a soundboard but, particularly from top to bottom along the mid-line joint, it's very very flimsy; it feels like a book in your hands, ready to fold down the middle. Here's where I've got to: First I trimmed the tops down to something like their final shape though nowhere near their final height yet: I then went into some very brave carving: Yes, it looks more like a spider than a motorbike but spiders don't bend down the middle. (Neither do motorbikes... I'll have to sort out my metaphors). I toyed with the idea of of putting a very light brace across the join near the bottom - and I still might do this - but realised that, once the soundboard is glued to the rim, there won't be much pressure on that mid-joint any more so it would only really be temporary scaffolding. Then I had my epiphany - No, not an Epiphone: if you want to fine-tune the frame of your motorbike you have to start by bolting it all together so that you've got a frame to test. So I suspect that I can't do much else with this soundboard until I glue a bridge - or something very like it - on to its face. Haven't quite decided whether to actually make up the real bridge itself at this early stage and glue it on because that will raise questions about final preparation of the face of the soundboard, polishing, precise positioning and so on... quite an exciting moment though. (I don't get out much).
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 6, 2016 21:39:36 GMT
A quick recap on gluing the pointy bit by the cutaway on the side. It's a tricky joint this because it's a butt- (or edge-) joint which, because it involves gluing end-grain to end-grain, is never going to be very strong. On top of that, it's all rather curvy so there's nowhere for your cramps to get hold of things. In view of this, I decided to do a modified "tent" joining method as used to join the two halves of the back and front boards of the guitar. This involves taping across the joint while it's wide open and then closing it on to the glue so that the tape automatically tightens and pulls the two parts together. Here are three thousand words: (spot on the template, I notice) Now this would probably hold up since it is going to be glued to plates of wood on either side which should provide enough support for the joint in situ but, since I like to be sure, I'm going to saw into the corner at five evenly spaced points and glue pieces of 1.5mm constructional veneer with their grain running across the joint. That ought to hold it. The ends of the veneer may show but I'll use the same sapele veneer as I used for the sides and, if they show, I'll call it Arts and Crafts; you get more marks for showing your workings. All the glue is hot hide here.
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 6, 2016 21:50:36 GMT
And what else have I done lately? Well, I made a neck blank and filled it with metal and carbon fibre. Here are some pictures of that: Neat bit of sawing, eh? I know it looks a bit wonky but it'll all come out nicely when I run a plane down the sides of it and carve it to proper neck shape. All the wood is from my old table top and is (Cuban) mahogany - very heavy, very dense. You can even see the polished surface on the side of the block in the first picture. I try to mix up the angle of the rings/grain when gluing these together so that, should the components decide to start moving, they'll move against each other and the whole ought to stay true. I later capped the truss-rod (2-way) with a thin piece of mahogany because that's what you do. The carbon fibre was glued in with carefully placed Araldite and the truss rod with Evo-Stick, which I fondly believe might prevent any rattling - but what do I know. The machine-head is angled back at about 14 degrees as was the last one ( The Bryn Production) but it was intentional this time. (The tabletops I am using, incidently, are worth almost exactly 2 neck+headstock length with only about 4mm spare. This makes the whole thing a bit tight when you bring in the kerf (cutting width) of the saw and so on.)
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R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
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Post by R the F on Feb 6, 2016 22:02:39 GMT
I'm sure everyone's seen something like this before but here is the re-gluing of the re-organised braces. They needed to be pretty precisely located and, when they're sliding around on hot glue, that can be tricky so I employed serious guide strips Evo-Stuck to the masking tape which delineated their positions. You should be able to see that in the pictures: Notice that the soundboard is dead flat this time. It's actually on a very old piece of blockboard. I doubt they even make blockboard any more - but francis will probably put me straight on that!
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francis
C.O.G.
Posts: 2,483
My main instrument is: Whatever I'm building...
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Post by francis on Feb 7, 2016 7:33:43 GMT
Nothing to put right rthef, (Yes you can still buy blockboard). Great thread and I admire you for not treading a trodden path.
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