R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 7, 2016 17:38:30 GMT
I feel painfully unqualified in areas of guitar-building theory so I went a bit potty a week ago and bought The Responsive Guitar by Ervin Somogyi (Luthiers Press 2009/2015) and I'm reading it. In fact I've hesitated in my build till I've finished reading what he has to say that might be of relevance to bracing and voicing the soundboard. After all, a man who can sell guitars for £25,000 before tax (unless you want something fancy - by which I mean lavishly adorned - when it'll cost a few thousand more) must know something about building guitars. So I went £150 potty in my desperation to fill the gaps in my knowledge. He clearly knows how to sell books as well!
Anyway, he's not too impressed by people like me. In his chapter on Other bracing systems: an overview he rather dismisses "the occasional asterisk/radially braced guitar that some hardy soul would make...." [ibid. page 53]
(I might change my forum name to "SomeHardySoul"!)
However, if you view the design as a X-braced guitar with the bridge positioned directly over the cross-over, I think he's unintentionally rather supportive:
"Scenario C: if the bridge moves so close to the “X” as to be right on top of it all bets are off; in this arrangement the bridge can achieve the best monopole, cross-dipole and long-dipole simultaneously – there’s not much to stop any of them except the massiveness of the “X” itself, which will probably inhibit the monopole most of all – but the stabilizing function of the “X” brace will be undermined and the face will sooner or later distort. This* will result in a less prominent monopole. Both the long dipole and cross dipole may or may not be enhanced depending on how the “X” is loosened up so as to rock long-ways or sideways." [ibid. page 109]
* I'm not sure if "this" refers to the inevitable distortion or the positioning of the bridge over the crossover - the latter I suppose. (rthef's footnote)
(It might also be of help to those who have not read the book to explain that the "monopole" is the whole soundboard vibrating up and down, the "cross-dipole" is the vibration rocking side to side pivoting at the centre line of the soundboard and the "long dipole" is a similar rocking vibration north of and south of the bridge along the length of the soundboard. These three types of vibration seem to be what you want if the guitar is to be responsive in bass, mid and treble ranges.)
If you could avoid the "sooner or later" distortion of the face, you'd have the best of all world's, wouldn't you? And with the north-south extension of my bridge over the limbs of the X and with the dowelling through, I think I have a fair chance of doing so. Maybe he wouldn't agree... Maybe you don't agree....
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 8, 2016 20:00:58 GMT
Managed to get a few minutes today to do what I said I was going to do; sawed into the pointy joint and reinforced it with constructional veneer: A bit rough and ready at the moment but very Arts and Crafts. Not sure that Arts and Crafts is very popular these days but there you go. Also managed to do a bit of reading and it seems that Somogyi voices his steel-string soundboard in situ: i.e. the soundboard is already glued to the rim so that he has access to both sides because the back is still open. I fancy I could take this approach but actually take it one stage further by attaching the neck and bridge as well and even polishing the soundboard and sides before voicing it. Only have to stick on the back to finish things off. Also means I can avoid the issue for the time being! Got to wrap some birthday presents for Bryn (14) now.
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 9, 2016 18:12:06 GMT
I don't seem to be able to leave well alone. God knows how I'm ever going to be an efficient guitar maker when I keep changing the plans. Anyway, in the spirit of beefiness, here is the new headstock (and the bulge is not caused by a wide-angle lens):
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 26,145
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Feb 10, 2016 9:40:11 GMT
I rather like that headstock.. a bit, sort of, organic
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 10, 2016 11:54:04 GMT
Thanks, Leo. You're a brick. Looks slightly pregnant, I thought...
|
|
leoroberts
C.O.G.
Posts: 26,145
My main instrument is: probably needing new strings
|
Post by leoroberts on Feb 10, 2016 13:48:52 GMT
Well, if it is, it wasn't me...
|
|
|
Post by andyhowell on Feb 10, 2016 15:41:29 GMT
Interesting stuff the Somogyi stuff. I's always interested in what he says but am always worried about people who are so sure they are right!
I like his notion that a great guitar is one that is so lightly built it is almost on the edge of collapse!
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 10, 2016 18:52:39 GMT
Interesting stuff the Somogyi stuff. I's always interested in what he says but am always worried about people who are so sure they are right! I think I'd be slightly more secure about my own ideas if I'd sold at least one guitar (for 25k) but I don't want to criticise Mr. S too much since he seems to be getting most of his ideas from me. The latest one I've just read is the suggestion that you stick a "fake bridge" on the soundboard to aid voicing, which is precisely what I was suggesting a few posts ago. He must be reading my stuff and then slipping it between the pages of his book! That's why the book costs so much; it's self-updating!!
|
|
francis
C.O.G.
Posts: 2,483
My main instrument is: Whatever I'm building...
|
Post by francis on Feb 10, 2016 21:22:12 GMT
If your building with a mould then you can use a full sized caul same shape as the soundboard but with a small enough inner edge to match the outline of the linings. You can then use screws at regular intvals around the caul and press the soundboard to the ribs and leave the soundboard 'free' enough to tap tune. I've done this with classicals with good results.
|
|
francis
C.O.G.
Posts: 2,483
My main instrument is: Whatever I'm building...
|
Post by francis on Feb 10, 2016 21:23:11 GMT
Screw the caul onto the mould!
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 10, 2016 22:32:48 GMT
Unfortunately, Francis, I've only got half a mould left since I mounted one half on top of the other to provide enough depth for the outer rim-forming mould for the plywood rim - if you follow. (Photos would help but I haven't got any). Like you, Somogyi also clamps his rim+soundboard inside the mould. I'm not sure it's any more effective than my using a complete guitar without its back, is it, as long as I can support the whole thing somehow before I start tapping?
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Feb 11, 2016 9:58:58 GMT
Just coming up to joining things together around the neck/body area and start going through best order to do things when you read back through davewhite 's current build and colins 's comment therein, which answers some of my questions before they're asked and some before I even knew they needed asking: "You probably know this already Dave, but when you glue the wedges in to the slots, don't get any glue onto the sides themselves only the wedges and the neck block. This means that when you set the neck angle in the solera, while gluing on the back, they have some very minor wiggle room. The sides are held in by friction until the back goes on and locks them into place. "With the double wedges I find it easier to fit the neck to the sides before I attach the top. If using continuous linings instead of dentellones for the top/side join will probably also make fitting the neck to the sides first a lot easier as well." Read more: acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/5764/flamenco-blanca-guitar-el-xiprer?page=4#ixzz3zqsF9yPZNow that's what I get out of ASBo! Well done all involved.
|
|
davewhite
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Luthier
Aemulor et ambitiosior
Posts: 3,548
|
Post by davewhite on Feb 11, 2016 10:22:17 GMT
Always listen well to Obi Wan Symonds and the force strong with you will be
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Mar 8, 2016 20:29:25 GMT
Gone a bit quiet in the Builds/Projects department so I thought I'd better say something about my (limited) progress. You can blame the people of Cottenham and surrounding villages who seem to want their furniture repaired all of a sudden. No respect for luthiery some people. Most of what I've done recently has concerned the "heel block" area so I'd better start with the plan. This looks all very organised and, well, planned but it has developed almost organically as I've looked at the lump of wood and what it's got to do. You'll notice it has to be tapered very slightly front to back laterally because it follows the widening of the fingerboard which it supports. It also tapers front to back vertically as the box is at its shallowest at the neck-joint and deepens to about 120mm at the other end. It also tapers quite a lot top to bottom since it seems sensible to follow the taper of the visible heel as it sits against the box. It also has to have slots - more properly "housings" - for the sides ("ribs") to be wedged into union with the block and these housings are slightly off-square to allow for the slight back-angle of the neck; otherwise there would not be the correct amount of action when strings and frets are added... Well, let's just say I found it all a bit confusing especially having to suddenly switch into guitar mode for a spare hour or so; you don't really want to make a mistake by cutting the block at the wrong angle or the wrong length or whatever. Of course, being me, I inevitably made mistakes: I was a few millimetres short in overall length and things were a bit tight vertically, too. With all this on my proverbial plate, suffice it to say that I had very literal case of luthier's block. But I burst through it with some episodes of bad language and here are my housings: Since the housings are cut into the block before it is tapered, I actually measured them from the centre line - 5mm from centre-line at the bottom and 17.75mm from centre line at the top of the block if anyone is dimensionally interested: And here are the sides trimmed to the correct angle (I hoped) to fit the housings - top at the bottom, of course: I mentioned above that the whole thing was a little short. This is basically as a result of trying to cut two neck lengths out of my table top; it leaves me about 3mm short of the ideal length unless my first cut is extremely neat and it never is. Even after cleaning up there is a messy corner: but what joy for all lovers of end-grain. So I patched it up and stuck a nice slice of mahogany on the end and made it look as if I had planned it that way all along and even added a bit at the bottom to provide enough depth to play with: But I am getting chronologically ahead of myself. Before all the tampering evident above, here is a picture of a dry-run with my wedges in place (thanks to davewhite and colins ). Notice (above) I even have the recommended access hole in my "solera" under the corner of the block. Anyway, to get back to the story, here is the dry-run: You've already seen that I did eventually manage to cut all the tapers and even glue in the wedges (hot hide glue, of course, but only on the wedges, ColinS if you're reading, so that the sides are free to move) but here is another angle on that in which you can see my preliminary carving of the heel itself: I have at least avoided the mistake I made with the heel on the last guitar I made and you can see the comparison in heel shape in this photo: and in this one: This is how things stand now: and the amp, cd-player and speaker cables are all on ebay if you're interested... Got to cook dinner now.
|
|
R the F
Luthier / Guitar Maker
Posts: 1,135
My main instrument is: bandsaw
|
Post by R the F on Apr 22, 2016 17:55:34 GMT
Dinner was delicious, as I remember, but now it's back to the build. This being a (completely) flat-topped guitar, I couldn't use any of my previous aids, which were all shaped for a side-to-side arch (radius = 5'10"). I therefore had to make a new "solera", though it's pretty simple, being two pieces of plywood glued/screwed back to back and cut to shape. It can be seen under the guitar-so-far in this photo: Here it's being used as a base/jig for gluing the sides (and neck) to the soundboard using - you'll be proud of me - fish glue! I thought long and hard about this after previous experiences, which were admittedly all my own fault. I wanted to use hot hide glue but couldn't see how I could control the temperature down there; how to heat the whole perimeter simultaneously whilst avoiding too much spread of heat on to the ends of the braces, which are detachable with a little heat, was beyond me. And you would have to get the cramps on before any of the glue started to gel. I then considered yellow glue (aliphatic resin), which is not reversible. The idea appealed to me since, in the event of access to the insides of the box being necessary, it would make much more sense to remove the back rather than the soundboard - no purfling to disrupt, no trouble with the end of the fretboard and so on. In the end I turned the dehumidifier up together with the heating, got the relative humidity down to about 42% and broke out the fish glue. "This is your last chance," I muttered. I must admit, it's nice to use, gives you plenty of open time, is easy to clean up and, given the right conditions, dries convincingly hard. I left it cramped up for over 24 hours and so far it gives the appearance of being bullet-proof. The fact that it's not as reversible as hot hide glue doesn't bother me too much for the reasons given above. Here are a couple more gluing pictures in celebration of the event: You'll notice I even read my notes and remembered to line the solera with baking paper to avoid sticking the whole lot together. The guitar emerged much as I had hoped apart from one obvious problem that I will have to come on to later - isn't there always a problem? Here's the beast so far: I say "beast" because, if you remember, this thing has thick sides and weighs a good deal more than you'd expect. (And whoever cleaned up the glue at the bottom there didn't do a very good job, either; can't get the staff these days.) The uncramping provided me with my first chance to hear the soundboard's "tap tone" with the edges glued down and it's definitely made a difference. However, without the bridge to make the whole thing rigid, you can't really come to any conclusions at this stage so I'm holding off. I have, however, continued to read Somogyi and I was feeling guilty about the state of the face of the soundboard. You might have guessed that it's been tossed from pillar to post over the last couple of months and it's picked up quite a few scrapes and dents along the way. Now Mr S makes a point of telling you how he keeps a piece of card fixed to the the front throughout most of the build to protect it from just such treatment and, since mine still measures almost 3mm in thickness, I decided to take this opportunity to sand it down to a nice clean surface which I could then protect in an attempt to look like a proper craftsman. I attacked first with 80 grit and then through the grades to 240, concentrating more towards the edges of the board rather than down the central spine where it needs its strength. It looks like a proper soundboard now but I'm afraid you can't see it because I've covered it with protective card: Another thing that Mr S suggests brings me to the slight mishap mentioned above. He points out the fingerstyle players need more distance between the string and the edge of the fingerboard on the treble side than on the bass side. In order not to throw everything out of kilter - and he's particularly worried about the end of the fingerboard at the soundhole not appearing skewed or off-centre - he attaches his neck so that it points to a spot precisely 1/8" to the treble side of the centre-line of the soundboard at the "butt" end with the fulcrum, as it were, at the end of the fingerboard. "I think I'll try that," thinks I. Well, it's not so easy when everything is face down on a solera. Or maybe it is if you are a bit more careful than I am. Suffice it to say that mine allows plenty of extra room on the treble side of the fretboard and I am going to have to move the bridge one or two millimetres across to allow for my over-exuberance. I would rather not show you but here it is: I will have to fall back on what Mr S says about this: this is a "purposeful element of guitar design and not an example of sloppy workmanship" - not in his case, anyway! To move on. Cutting the purfling and binding channels. I'm sure I've shown this before but here are some pictures of my simple (copied from the web) device to guide the router bit where it should go. It works even better when the front of the guitar is dead flat, of course. You can see it naked in one of the previous pictures but here it is with some nice layers of bubble-wrap to soften things and keep the box straight: I started with the binding channel and it seemed to go well. There are no worries about taking the whole corner out with this guitar since the sides are so thick! This afternoon I managed to find time to rout out the channel for the purfling (but didn't have time to take a photo). Next job: make the purfling. Quite a job!
|
|